challenger motor freight [Archive] - Page 3

Mule Bleue

01-18-2010, 04:30 PM

This article pretty well sums it up about my feelings on unions , only he writes it much better than I could!

Written by Steve Macleod and posted on the Highway Star website.
Jan/5/2010
Whatever short-term gains a labour union wins for its members is unlikely to have any long-term significance for the employees.

No matter what the outcome of a labour strike is, neither side will ever really be happy again.

The longer a strike goes on, employees feel less valued in the work they did before, and employers assume their workers didn't really care about the job in the first place. Just the pay cheque.

The resentment from both sides will likely carry on into the workplace after the strike is done. It becomes a bad marriage. It's an exercise destined to repeat itself over, and over, and over again.

At Vancouver International Airport, both baggage handlers and employees of Hertz Rental Cars (represented by different unions) have threatened strike action. Also along the west coast, employees of Pacific Coach Lines ý bus drivers, mechanics, service staff and ticket agents ý voted in favour of striking.

The four-day strike by CN Rail locomotive engineers ended just hours before back-to-work legislation was introduced by the federal government. The company and the Teamsters Canada Rail Conference union reached agreement on resolving outstanding contractual issues related to wages, benefits and work rules through further negotiations and, if necessary, binding arbitration.

Gravel haulers in B.C.'s lower mainland also figured a strike might be the only way to get some dump truck operators to stop accepting hourly rates below industry standard for work being done on the Port Mann Bridge.

And now, one of Canada's largest carriers could find its truckers joining a union. The Teamsters have begun organizing a drive to get company drivers and owner-operators with Challenger Motor Freight and its subsidiaries Elgin Motor Freight and Lodwick Transport to join the union ranks.

Back in 2008, Markham, Ont.-based Highland Transport almost had to shut its doors because it couldn't react quickly enough to the economic downturn and the changing market, because they had to deal with a unionized workforce.

The union eventually advised its workers to accept the new contract and its modified pay structure. While the union may have earned the drivers a 48-cent-per-litre cap on fuel, it went away with the new contract, along with 2.5 cents per mile for non-heavy-haul loads and empty miles. In the long run, the perks the union earned didn't really pay off after all, and almost put a lot of drivers in the unemployment line.

The few extra dollars a union might earn you today could end up costing you a job in the long run if the carrier can't make profits with an increased payroll.

If your employer is such a tyrant, so cruel and unruly that going into work every day is like getting teeth pulled, then find a new job. Nobody is forcing you to work for a particular carrier and there are literally thousands of trucking operations across the country.

It's rarely just about the money, so if your boss isn't appreciating you the way you want, find one who will. It may take some trial and error because not every operation is run the same and what's good for one person might not be what's good for the next.

But if trucking is in your blood, there's a carrier to match you, and you don't need a union to find it.

This one's for you Liner:
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Who do you think you are Mr Macleod by having a such lack of judgement like that about the Teamsters campaign over Challenger ? Where's your impartiality? Where's your journalism integrity? Do you know that there's two side on a medal??

Before spitting on Drivers, Mens an Womens, that have enough guts an balls to stand-up in front of a major corporation like Cmf and in front of someone powerfull as Mr Einweichter is , you an all the others peoples that aren't agree with that, you should have a seat an watch, ask yourself why that happen? Do you really think that happen just like that? Do you think that someone woke-up one morning an ask hiself: humm what can i do today? Hey why not organise Cmf, that will keep me an my friends busy!

When you write down that article you haven't done your work in a professional manner. Have you talk with drivers involve with that? Have you talk with Teamsters? Have you take time to sit an think about-it? Why this happen now at this time? Why it didn't happen in the previous years? What are the impacts for the Mens an Womens involved? What will be the impact on the whole trucking industry coast to coast. You sure not! Even if your position is against Teamsters, you would have a different look at it. According to you, today there's no need for Teamsters, well let me ask you on what planet do you live on?

In those years that we're going thru, it is more then ever important that drivers join Union, Teamsters in preference, because that is the only legal tool that We the Drivers an O/O, have a for negociating power. Hey if carrier can have all kind of associations to represent thereself, why not Us having Teamsters to speak loud for us , instead of job hopping?

If you would have done your homework in a rite manner, you would have gone backward in history, an realise that Unions for the last 100 years, have done great things by improving quality of life of theirs members . It as also reflect on the non-union workers, like-it or not, that's the truth that you can't denied, unless you put your head deep deep deep in the sand.

Getting with Teamsters is not only a matter of money, that's another point that you an your friends (the carriers) don't understand. Have you ever heard "DRIVERS RESPECT" an "SENIORITY". Huh, what a bad word!! I'm driving a truck for over 35 years, I'm with Cmf for over 15 years, have stay there during hard period, even when the miles where low, that what it call "LOYALTY". I'm a good driver, reliable driver, accident-free driver, FAST approved driver, versatile driver. All that deserve "RESPECT" OK!!

You say that if we're not happy to change carrier; what a hell of a poor an mean attitude. Do you think that is the solution? Did you know that more of 95% of negotiation in Canada with Union solve without a strike or lock-out? Did you ever try to sit an negociate in a frank manner, with the peoples facing you, an if you do it, you'll be surprise how all party can find a win-win solution. But to do so you must sit an talk, not *****ing like you just did. Also when you are talking about "unskilled workers" are you talking about the Drivers?? Hope not!!

What happen at Highland, where you there when that happen??? How about may be some poor management!!! Have you been involved with CN locomotive engineers? Or with Pacific Coach Lines? With gravel haulers? Or with OntarioDrive test center?Or you only represent carriers opinions? Drivers opinions do not count for you, after all you must be accountable to your advertisers, readers not important! I tough that Highway Star was dedicated to "Canada Professional Truckers". Well January "Last Page" didn't reflect that.

What do you think it will happen to the Drivers who start Teamsters campaign over Cmf, if it failed? Those Mans an Womens have "COURAGE" but that word is certainly not part of your vocabulary. Once again, you an all the others, should have the greatest RESPECT for all the Mens an Womens who have the guts an balls to stand-up to improve theirs working conditions, an quality of life. You should also give to those Mens an Womens A BIG HAND! They deserve-it

Syndicalement
Richard Corbeil
Routier Professionnel

By the way do you remember few years ago when Highland been offer to Dan an that he refuse as that would have drain too much from Cmf, that Highland was an upside down manage compagny, do you remember how glad he was to have turn that offer down!! Nothing to do with the fact that O#O where member of union. Why not when you cite do it properly??

Oh also Mr Mcleod didn't get back to me, Mr Lockwood sure did but not Mcleod, make me wonder !

maan

01-18-2010, 04:46 PM

I had a ton written up on the article but the article was so full of ..holes with one sided bias and few facts that i couldn't be bothered posting or finishing the response.

In the fewest words, Unions are bad, this that or the other thing could, likely, rarely, might happen with a bunch of absolutes thrown in - always, never, ever, no matter, (all of that is the same as whatever) that it is mostly a one sided piece of BS that is not even argued well. Full of ..holes

Starts with BS right from the get go:

No matter what the outcome of a labour strike is, neither side will ever really be happy again.

The longer a strike goes on, employees feel less valued in the work they did before, and employers assume their workers didn't really care about the job in the first place. Just the pay cheque.

The resentment from both sides will likely carry on into the workplace after the strike is done. It becomes a bad marriage. It's an exercise destined to repeat itself over, and over, and over again.I guess if you hit a rough spot in a marriage & I would say very few don't, it's over.

EDIT - and what a whopper summation we have here ..destiny.

MHL1965

01-18-2010, 10:28 PM

McLeod's article had a few points, but in the end, it really isn't his decision is it? There are a number of people like our Quebec friend here who wrote a very passionate letter back in rebuttal who don't care what Highway Star or anyone else thinks. Good for him. I know that Einwechter ran a pretty ideal company for a lot of years, but something has changed, and the bad times are I am sure aggrivating things, but there is something else afoot.

Challenger could be a union company within a year and a half, and if it happens, I will just figure the guys got the attention of management. That bill is cheaper to pay if you pay it every day than if you ignore it and the union makes you pay that tab....

elmo

01-19-2010, 06:42 AM

MHL1965

01-19-2010, 12:32 PM

What gets me is the hupocrysi of it all….. all of a sudden you cant turn around without seeing a member of upper management …. Smiling, asking questions, being super nice, promising this or that…..
Where the hell were they when MIDDLE MANAGEMENT were making up their own little rules ,just too look good for UPPER MANAGEMENT. “little dog pleasing the big dog” look look boss I’m saving you 50 cents, “ all this done on the backs of workers who already gave and gave… or how about “lets kick em while there down”
And my Favorite “ well we didn’t know this was going on “ well you know now!!!!!!!
And to say “well if you don’t like it go somewhere else” this is pure and simple loser . kiss a… talk
The way I look at it “look at what has been accomplished with just a threat of a union….we got their
Attention big time…. Imagine what could be done WITH a union!!!!!!!!!
My opinion

Good Cop, bad cop sort of thing. Upper mangement like Dan Einwechter try to make it sound like they were not aware the natives were restless but unless he fires guys out the door who were making unpopular decisions, then obviously he stood behind what they were doing.

I said I didn't think Challenger would go union, but your post makes me wonder just what the heck has happened to a company I thought was pretty well run.

maan

01-19-2010, 02:40 PM

What gets me is the hupocrysi of it all….. all of a sudden you cant turn around without seeing a member of upper management …. Smiling, asking questions, being super nice, promising this or that…..
I would call that a welcome approach for now that's much better for them than to be outright openly hostile from the get go ..but, that could change quick & behind the smiling & stuff is no doubt a desire to get information.

MHL1965

01-19-2010, 03:07 PM

I would call theat a welcome approach for now that's much better for them than to be outright openly hostile from the get go ..but, that could change quick & behind the smiling & stuff is no doubt a desire to get information.

Whether they are fishing to figure out who is really pushing this, or whether guys have signed the cars, they are doing some politiking.....

Lonleyboy 515

01-20-2010, 09:28 AM

MHL1965

01-20-2010, 04:37 PM

Ever since we moved to Maplegrove attitude from lower management as well as upper management & other personel has changed. I can see why some drivers got upset & out of desperation seeked out help from teamsters.If this is what it is going to take for all management to wake up & take notice that enough is enough & drivers are not going to put up with the abuse any longer.Saying this i have never had a problem with any one in all my years with Challenger.

You say you haven't had a problem yet you say things have changed since the move to Maplegrove. Does this mean you are going to have a problem and haven't yet or it is just everyone else complaining?

Curious to know...

ratfink

01-20-2010, 05:56 PM

I'm curious too.

elmo

01-21-2010, 09:25 PM

for those who might be concerned....

Challenger Campaign: Empty Promises

01-18-2010
EST
Laval, January 18, 2010 – The Teamsters Union has learned that the president of the Challenger group, Dan Einwechter, is said to have led his workers to believe the organizing campaign will end after six months.

It is true that the union membership application card signed by workers during the past weeks is valid for a period of six months, since this campaign falls under the federal government's authority. However, as is the case with all campaigns of this nature, Teamsters organizers will remain available to workers as long as workers wish.

"There are likely very good reasons that we have received so many telephone calls from the workers during the past few weeks," pointed out Robert Bouvier, president of Teamsters Canada. "A clear sense of uneasiness is becoming apparent from their comments."

In addition, the president of Challenger has supposedly confirmed he has not been aware of the deterioration in the working climate during recent years. This is a very surprising statement, given that the majority of those who have communicated with Teamsters Canada organizers have complained about a blatant lack of respect.

"I have worked in organized labour for nearly 40 years and I can confirm that, too often, employers' promises are nothing but empty promises aimed at deceiving workers," explained Mr. Bouvier. "Nothing will change at Challenger if the workers do not take matters into their own hands."

However, the president of Teamsters Canada advises Dan Einwechter to beware of the temptation of wanting to find guilty parties among his staff.

"We have been warned that there might be an investigation into the origin of testimonials posted on our campaign site," added the union president. Challenger management cannot muzzle workers' freedom of expression, and we will employ every method—for as long as necessary—to protect them, regardless of the financial and human resources our union must dedicate to the effort.

Consequently, the Teamsters organizing team will remain in the field and will continue to communicate with workers during the weeks, and even months, to come. Challenger workers may also visit the campaign website at www.teamsters-challenger.ca (http://www.teamsters-challenger.ca/) to stay informed about the latest campaign developments.

The Teamsters Union represents 125,000 members in Canada in all trades. The International Brotherhood of Teamsters, with which Teamsters Canada is affiliated, has 1.4 million members in North America.

-30-

maan

01-21-2010, 10:40 PM

However, the president of Teamsters Canada advises Dan Einwechter to beware of the temptation of wanting to find guilty parties among his staff.

I suspect Dan is doing just that with the new friendly attitude going around.

maan

01-22-2010, 05:15 AM

In the fewest words, that's saying quite a bit!

liner

01-22-2010, 08:32 AM

Well if things are so bad at CMF,I wouldn't think it should take more than 6 months to get it done.If they don't have enough cards signed after 6 months they may as well give up!!

ralph

01-22-2010, 03:54 PM

Well if things are so bad at CMF,I wouldn't think it should take more than 6 months to get it done.If they don't have enough cards signed after 6 months they may as well give up!!

If it takes 6 months that's 3 too long IMHO. It's not like drivers never get to terminals and I'm sure there will be a "full court press" to get all drivers and O/O's literature. Do the Teamsters mail out their propoganda to all employed or are they obligated to do it in another fashion?

liner

01-22-2010, 04:57 PM

If it takes 6 months that's 3 too long IMHO. It's not like drivers never get to terminals and I'm sure there will be a "full court press" to get all drivers and O/O's literature. Do the Teamsters mail out their propoganda to all employed or are they obligated to do it in another fashion?

I really don't know how they get there literature and propoganda out to the drivers,because I have not seen hide nor hair of anything or anyone from the teamsters other than here, or the few news clips several months ago when they first targeted CMF. Its at the teamsters website but not all drivers have a computer.IMHO they are doing a pretty poor job of informing the drivers of there intentions!

ralph

01-22-2010, 05:04 PM

I think when they were trying to unionize @ Toyota again they set up at the gates which negatively impacted traffic. I can't see that working on @ Challenger as they are on the same road as Toyota. I can't imagine ownership/management is obligated to allow them on the property nor can I imagine that the company is obligated to furnish a list of employees due to PPIDA (or however you spell the damn thing).

liner

01-22-2010, 05:57 PM

I just listened to the teamster Canada presidents message to the CMF drivers on there website and had a good chuckle.Does this guy even know anything at all about the world of trucking,or is he new to the job! Man...that was sad.:rofl2[1]:

liner

01-22-2010, 06:03 PM

I just listened to the teamster Canada presidents message to the CMF drivers on their website and had a good chuckle.Does this guy even know anything at all about the world of trucking,or is he new to the job! Man...that was sad.:rofl2[1]:

mc94xr7

01-23-2010, 07:44 AM

do you have any other solution other than union???

.
yap. quit yr job and collect pogey. Capitlism is a great thing. if you dont agree then maybe you should try applying for a manufacturing job in a socialist society like china. theres yr regulation utopia. supply and demand is such a great law. the strongest survive and the week go crying for a union and ruin it for everyone. if your boss is so mean then get a new boss like a winner. otherwise go live off your mom. but i like exercising my freedom of choice like a true capitalist. "freedom is so evil. oh liberty is such a bad thing"- im sick of hearing that crap in Canada. you dont belong in a free country if you hate capitalism

ratfink

01-23-2010, 12:17 PM

Wow you guys are impressing me.
mc94xr7, yes thats the easy way huh? just quit,
now since you have not been in trucking for a long time, about what? a year the most.
Let me explain you a few facts of trucking life.
First, yes, when not happy with our job we should quit.
that's what been happening for years, guys wont put up with new law enforcment, waste of time all over the place, no respect, self inflicted company rules so they could look good in the publics eyes.
So they do exactly that, they quit, and the results? companies are crying out loud that drivers are not reliable because they keep changing jobs.
Then guys you come in this industry, take a pay cut to get an edge on union drivers and expect your opinion to be respected?
come on get serious

maan

01-23-2010, 01:57 PM

They are serious, that's why there are Unions and it's nice to have a choice. They can work in a non Union shop if they like it so much.

maan

01-23-2010, 03:05 PM

@lliner - it's no wonder you're a big fat target at challenger. I'd bet you never knew how popular you were.

liner

01-23-2010, 03:39 PM

@lliner - it's no wonder you're a big fat target at challenger. I'd bet you never knew how popular you were.

Only on here my friend, only on here......I keep a low profile,don't hang around the yard, and I'd say at least 80 % of the drivers would not know me to see me.:23_11_60:

Pipeman

01-23-2010, 06:46 PM

Four years ago David Bradley spoke at the AMTA Convention in Banff and said that we were short 52,000 truck drivers in Canada, he asked what we should do.

I put up my hand and he asked me to speak, I said, " There are 610,000 Class 1 (AZ) holders in Canada that no longer drive for a living" Why don't you get the wages up high enough to entice them to come back ?"

I'm still waiting for his answer.

mc94xr7

01-23-2010, 08:09 PM

mc94xr7, yes thats the easy way huh? just quit,
now since you have not been in trucking for a long time, about what? a year the most.
Let me explain you a few facts of trucking life.
First, yes, when not happy with our job we should quit.
that's what been happening for years, guys wont put up with new law enforcment, waste of time all over the place, no respect, self inflicted company rules so they could look good in the publics eyes.
So they do exactly that, they quit, and the results? companies are crying out loud that drivers are not reliable because they keep changing jobs.
Then guys you come in this industry, take a pay cut to get an edge on union drivers and expect your opinion to be respected?
come on get serious
unfortunately, you gotta sometimes quit. as for looking good in the public eye? are they not the ones that voted for all the government manipulation of this trade. i have no sympathy for them. i give them respect but i'm not going out of my way for them like i do in the U.S.. in the U.S. i try my best not to hold up traffic when passing someone unless there is a special 55 or 65mph limit. at work my goal is to make money, not friends. i am friendly but not a push over- lots of people, i see, in my union environment still try to make you look bad infront of "important" people. i just watch what i say- mainly stick to the truth. i'm a hard worker not a rat. i dont rely on the union just pay for it. if i had the choice i woulda gone to a non union but i made my choice and i dint regret it. but i can see the teamsters dissolving in the future. but we do get $400 paid miles min. its worth the dues i pay but i bet that isnt even something the union fought for. the got no proof as far as i am concerned. did i finally make myself clear. i dont know if i can explain any diferently to show im not complaining. i just figure the union is taking credit for what sgt gives us.

mc94xr7

01-23-2010, 08:23 PM

Only on here my friend, only on here......I keep a low profile,don't hang around the yard, and I'd say at least 80 % of the drivers would not know me to see me.:23_11_60:
lol i wish i could have a low profile but everyone knew my name within the first few days even in the s. germain terminal. i still got no idea if thats a good or a bad thing but i kept getting in trouble for various screw ups i committed. but i can feel respectful vibes from them. they probably know all i wanna do is the best job i can to make us all money. the sgt atmosphere though, is very firendly and we all get along like family. you just gotta watch yir backs from the people trying to take short cuts up the ladder. but i only can climb with hard work and honesty. i cant be a phony or a cheater. taking a pay cut only benefits everyone. hey i might have save a job for someone by doing that. so in a way i took a hit for the teamsters

liner

01-23-2010, 08:29 PM

unfortunately, you gotta sometimes quit. as for looking good in the public eye? are they not the ones that voted for all the government manipulation of this trade. i have no sympathy for them. i give them respect but i'm not going out of my way for them like i do in the U.S.. in the U.S. i try my best not to hold up traffic when passing someone unless there is a special 55 or 65mph limit. at work my goal is to make money, not friends. i am friendly but not a push over- lots of people, i see, in my union environment still try to make you look bad infront of "important" people. i just watch what i say- mainly stick to the truth. i'm a hard worker not a rat. i dont rely on the union just pay for it. if i had the choice i woulda gone to a non union but i made my choice and i dint regret it. but i can see the teamsters dissolving in the future. but we do get $400 paid miles min. its worth the dues i pay but i bet that isnt even something the union fought for. the got no proof as far as i am concerned. did i finally make myself clear. i dont know if i can explain any diferently to show im not complaining. i just figure the union is taking credit for what sgt gives us.

You mean to say you are in the union and still only getting $.30 CPM!!!Why would you even work for that rate,let alone pay union dues to the teamsters for getting you such a deal!! And the union is taking credit for what SGT gives you!! You are getting screwed by SGT and the teamsters at the same time!! Sad...sad...sad situation.

mc94xr7

01-23-2010, 08:33 PM

Well if things are so bad at CMF,I wouldn't think it should take more than 6 months to get it done.If they don't have enough cards signed after 6 months they may as well give up!!
nope. unions are like beggers. we had the Cryers And Whiners (C.A.W.) and the steal workers kept harasing us every month at our plastic factory i used to work at but no one would sign the card. all they need is 51% of the employees to sign.then the others will be bumped from there jobs if they dont pay their protection fees- legalized extortion back by the godfather- i mean government.

mc94xr7

01-23-2010, 08:38 PM

You mean to say you are in the union and still only getting $.30 CPM!!!Why would you even work for that rate,let alone pay union dues to the teamsters for getting you such a deal!! And the union is taking credit for what SGT gives you!! You are getting screwed by SGT and the teamsters at the same time!! Sad...sad...sad situation.
i'm a rookie. they offered to turn me into a driver and pay for my rig school. in return i had to go team for 4 months and make 15 cents a mile. i'm not complaining about that. after 2 years i'll see where we stand. im rolling around in the dirt to get experience.

Unions are like "Free Healthcare" its something that sounds pretty but its just a scam:cook[1]:

maan

01-23-2010, 08:47 PM

You mean to say you are in the union and still only getting $.30 CPM!!!Why would you even work for that rate,.
Know a guy at .33 non union, works for him cos close to work, all local otr so home every night & has toddlers. Dunno if generally local otr might be less pay.

SpiritRoad

01-23-2010, 09:16 PM

You mean to say you are in the union and still only getting $.30 CPM!!!Why would you even work for that rate,<SNIP>
Sounds like what rookies get paid in the pumpkin patch

http://fleetowner.com/management/inbox/fleet_driver_pay_schneider/

Anyone know what they pay these days in Canada ? Yeah it's off topic so PM me if you'll sleep better

Dave

maan

01-23-2010, 11:20 PM

If unions are a such a good thing then why do they intimidate and scare you to join?:asking:

If Unions are so bad, why are there ~ 4.5 mil members in Canada?

mc94xr7

01-23-2010, 11:35 PM

If Unions are so bad, why are there ~ 4.5 mil members in Canada?
Ya bureaucracy is a beaytifull thing here in Canada. we can thank the useless public sector monopolies for that. since they make up the majourity of the union population. we see how well they work- the fire fighters are there when we need them. they are an exception

ratfink

01-24-2010, 02:39 AM

You mean to say you are in the union and still only getting $.30 CPM!!!Why would you even work for that rate,let alone pay union dues to the teamsters for getting you such a deal!! And the union is taking credit for what SGT gives you!! You are getting screwed by SGT and the teamsters at the same time!! Sad...sad...sad situation.

Is he in the union or not?
Not long ago he wrote he was still on probation.
he also wrote he vollunteered to take a pay cut so he could have an edge on the union guys....

This is a perfect example on what is our problem in this industry

This is a new driver, 20 some years old and he's ready and willing to take a pay cut.

Of course the company will give him a friendly and family atmosphere,

HE'S A BARGAIN.

He comes with is own vaseline pot and put himself a ton of sand in it.
They just love guys like that.

They know he'll do anything as long they dont have to pay him.

ralph

01-24-2010, 06:45 AM

[QUOTE=ratfink;27674]
He comes with is own vaseline pot and put himself a ton of sand in it.
QUOTE]

Now that's FUNNY, I don't care who you are!

maan

01-24-2010, 08:56 AM

I found the 'ton' part ..abrasive

Mule Bleue

01-24-2010, 01:28 PM

If Unions are so bad, why are there ~ 4.5 mil members in Canada?

Yes how come?? I don't think that's a bad thing, it should be dedramatize; Union are not monsters that will eat your children!! Unfortunatly there's a lot of urban legend out there an not much can't be done as there's always be. So we got to deal with it. Union as improve quality of life of all workers on the planet, Union an non-union. When talking with peoples who complaint about Union you can see after a while that most of thoses peoples never get involve in the Union life; meeting etc. If you don't take care of your business (Union) somebody else will do, it's like politic, if you don't participate, vote, well politic will take care of you an you won't like it. same for Union, strong an well run Union are the one where the members get involved in it.

You may not like it but that's the way it is! Peoples who always complaint an do nothing about it ,just don't go too far in life. If you take care of it an yes complaint an come with solutions an negociate with your boss, yes things will improved. Yes it may take sometime but thing will move. It is a better solution then just doing nothing because your are affraid of you boss, or that he won't like it. If you stand up for your rights, i can tell you even if a the first time your boss may react in a negative manner, with time he will respect you because you stand-up. Most of the boos don't like nite crawlers. They preffer someone who will stand-up an not been affraid of them!!

My friend Liner find out that the video of Mr Robert Bouvier, President of Teamsters Canada, if very funny; well you know at least he do make an video address to the Drivers an O/O of Cmf. Where's the Ota, Cta ,Qta etc?? When does any of thoses peoples, Mr David Bradley for example, did ever make any public adress to the Drivers an O/O??

You do think that after 6 months Teamsters should quit if not enough signature!!! Hum Let me tell you what ever the time it will take they will go to the end of it. Have you ever heard about the funnel law?? Yes it's just a matter of time before you go into the hole at the bottom of the funnel!!

Just like Ratfink was saying " Any other solutions??" Something else than ; well if you're not happy just quit!! By the way the reference about China is just a cheap shot, those Chinese peoples are trying hard to Unionized their working place to improve their quality of life, wich is a lot better than all thoses peoples who lives here an sit on their ass an complaint , an do nothing to improve their quality of life.

Peoples , an whatever is the Union, where ever they work , anyone who have enough balls an gut to stand-up for their's rights, an fight to improve his quality of life for him an his co-workers should deserve a BIG HAND. It is with peoples like that society move foward, get better.

maan

01-24-2010, 02:04 PM

Now there's an answer with some meat on it, I was hoping to hear more form the other side.

liner

01-24-2010, 04:44 PM

If Unions are so bad, why are there ~ 4.5 mil members in Canada?

Well if unions are so good then why do they only represent 25% of Canada's workforce...and that percentage is falling every year?

Unions served a useful purpose at one time,but IMHO that time has long past!

Pipeman

01-24-2010, 05:00 PM

Well if unions are so good then why do they only represent 25% of Canada's workforce...and that percentage is falling every year?

Unions served a useful purpose at one time,but IMHO that time has long past!Possibly because the other 75% get paid decent money to begin with.

And another thing, about 95% of the 75% are probably government employees. hahahaha

liner

01-24-2010, 05:11 PM

Possibly because the other 75% get paid decent money to begin with.

And another thing, about 95% of the 75% are probably government employees. hahahaha

I think it's more like 95% of the 25% that are government employees.

The teamsters show around 110,000 members in all trades,not just trucking,so I would be curious to know just how many of those 110,000 are trucking jobs.

Mule Bleue

01-24-2010, 05:27 PM

I think it's more like 95% of the 25% that are government employees.

The teamsters show around 110,000 members in all trades,not just trucking,so I would be curious to know just how many of those 110,000 are trucking jobs.

Sorry Buddy but you're wrong. Teamsters Canada represent 125,000 + Members in Canada an Teamsters represent 1,400,000 + members in USA.

Also there's others Union that represent Truck drivers. I think that you should check you're info instead shooting all kind of wrong infos!! It true that these are not only truck drivers job, but they do represent Purolator, Ups , some of Trans-Force divisions, they represent also the mechanics , dock workers of these compagny. So as well represent Molson in Montrteal; plant worker, drivers , distibution center, etc.. The main core remain truck drivers.

Mule Bleue

01-24-2010, 06:02 PM

Also in 2009 there's over 2000 new members who joins Teamsters Canada; there must be a good reson for -it!!!!

ratfink

01-24-2010, 06:21 PM

Well if unions are so good then why do they only represent 25% of Canada's workforce...and that percentage is falling every year?

Unions served a useful purpose at one time,but IMHO that time has long past!

Because theres way too many guys who are willing to take pay cuts to have an edge on others. (mc94xr7 (http://www.truckstopcanada.ca/forum/member.php?u=1013))

because there's too many guys who wont give a rats rear end about others because they are confortable.

Too many drivers come into the business and dont know how much they are going to make, they rely on what?

What the companies tell them.

liner

01-24-2010, 06:33 PM

Sorry Buddy but you're wrong. Teamsters Canada represent 125,000 + Members in Canada an Teamsters represent 1,400,000 + members in USA.

Also there's others Union that represent Truck drivers. I think that you should check you're info instead shooting all kind of wrong infos!! It true that these are not only truck drivers job, but they do represent Purolator, Ups , some of Trans-Force divisions, they represent also the mechanics , dock workers of these compagny. So as well represent Molson in Montrteal; plant worker, drivers , distibution center, etc.. The main core remain truck drivers.

Ok here's the fact's. My numbers were a few years old so I added a few thousand to make it look better.According to the CLC the teamsters had 108,510 members in 2007.I saw the teamsters website claims 125,000 members but I kinda figured they always like to exaggerate things a little so I subtracted a few.You can also check the CLC website and it will show you how the percentage of union workers is declining every year, so I'm not just as you say "shooting all kind of wrong infos"!!

They may have added more NEW members in 2009,but they fail to mention how many members they lost in that same year!

Table 2

Labour Organizations with Largest Membership—2007

Name and Affiliation

Number of
Members

Canadian Union of Public Employees – CLC

548,880

National Union of Public and General Employees – CLC

340,000

United Steel, Paper and Forestry, Rubber, Manufacturing, Energy, Allied Industrial and Service Workers International Union – AFL-CIO/CLC

280,000

National Automobile, Aerospace, Transportation and General Workers Union of Canada (CAW Canada ) – CLC

265,000

United Food and Commercial Workers Canada – CtW/CLC

245,330

Canadian Teachers’ Federation

219,000

Public Service Alliance of Canada – CLC

166,960

Ontario Teachers’ Federation (1) – CLC

155,000

Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada – CLC

150,100

Canadian Federation of Nurses – CLC

135,000

Fédération de la santé et des services sociaux – CSN

117,130

Ontario Public Service Employees Union (2) – CLC

113,500

Teamsters Canada – CtW/CLC

108,510

liner

01-24-2010, 06:39 PM

Too many drivers come into the business and dont know how much they are going to make, they rely on what?

What the companies tell them.

Yes, and IMHO I only need to change one word of that statement.

Too many drivers come into the business and dont know how much they are going to make, they rely on what?

What the teamsters tell them.LOL

maan

01-24-2010, 06:51 PM

funny how you lead in with humility (imho) and end up quick with 'lol' ..lol

ratfink

01-24-2010, 06:58 PM

Yes, and IMHO I only need to change one word of that statement.

Too many drivers come into the business and dont know how much they are going to make, they rely on what?

What the teamsters tell them.LOL

Come on, you can come up with something better than that.
They dont know because nobody tell them.

Most of the times, they find out when they receive theyre first pay check and realize that all the waiting time they endures all week was NOT paid.

And when they ask about it, they are told , "hey, it's part of the trucking game, you chose to be a trucker, that's the way it is"

That's what companies tell them.
Not teamsters or any other union.
And the worse is that's also what other drivers will tell them and if somebody dares to get up and try to do something about it....

they are ridiculized by liners of this world.

Keep it up buddy.

By the way, didn't read anything constructive yet from you.

liner

01-24-2010, 07:31 PM

they are ridiculized by liners of this world.

Keep it up buddy.

By the way, didn't read anything constructive yet from you.

No,not ridiculing anyone...just stating my opinion about the way I see things,which happens to differ from yours,and yes I can keep it up.

As far as reading anything constructive...I guess we are even there!

liner

01-24-2010, 07:37 PM

funny how you lead in with humility (imho) and end up quick with 'lol' ..lol

Well I guess IMHO this topic has gone on for so long now that it's getting pretty hard to take it too serious anymore. LOL

MHL1965

01-24-2010, 11:40 PM

MHL1965

01-24-2010, 11:56 PM

Well if unions are so good then why do they only represent 25% of Canada's workforce...and that percentage is falling every year?

Unions served a useful purpose at one time,but IMHO that time has long past!

You know, you have been spreading your BS around here like you have all the answers and here is the one thing I do know: You have your agenda, period. You have this tirade going on about this because you don't want the union. I have no idea why you don't want it other than you figure you are a capitalist. My fanny you are, you own your own truck and sign an exclusive contract to pull someone else's trailer and someone else's freight. You are a contracted worker, a wage slave in my books. IF you want to be a true capitalist, tell Challenger you are getting your own running rights and go hustle up some freight, and buy your own trailer. Otherwise spare us all the Adam Smith award winning lecture.

First off, even tho I have defended the Teamsters, and was one for a few years, I am by nature a capitalist AND a conservative. I am all for capitalism. How does the Union fit into this? Well, if you are paying any amount of attention what the unions do is collectively negotiate the wages and benefits for the guys working at at company. THAT, and defend that contract. Nothing political in any of that. It is called creating and using leverage. All the political crap unions get into bugs me to no end, but that is only because most union members have a nap between contracts and don't demand their union leaders stay the Hell out of politics.

The point is the workers at Challenger are feeling like they are not getting a decent deal. There are 1800 of em or at least there were before the recession. How the hell would they get a raise? All take turns going into Dan's office? How about just doing a REALLY good job and hoping someone notices? Oh I know, sucking up to management by ratting out people? Oh that is brilliant.

Liner, if Challenger wasn't paying you enough per mile for you not to go broke, what do you do? Seriously, you asking for more money? How much leverage you have? ZERO buddy....unless management decides they don't want to lose their o/o's to bankruptcy. The company driver? He has no options. Quit, or suck it up...unless...he and the other guys decide to band together.

Liner, your anti-Teamster tirades are boring and quite frankly full of your own opinion and little fact. IT is YOUR crusade to get them out, because after all, you are just a PURE capitalist....and when Challenger asks you to take a 2 cent a mile cut or 10 cent a mile cut, you will just love it all because, hey you are a capitalist....business is slow right?

The boys and girls at Challenger will make up their own minds. Personally, if they feel they are tired of leaving one company after another, they will sign cards. Some might do it happily, and some may not, but you run a company and it gets unionized, you deserve it.

The reason there are not many union companies left in North America is because of the decline of manufacturing jobs and the growth in the service industry. That, and the unstable nature of the economy.

Are their bad unions? Yes...but if Challenger goes union, and the guys really push the Teamsters to do the job they deserve, then they will have the attention of management. They don't have it now. Liner, you seem ok with that, but alas, you being the big tycoon you are and all you may not have noticed that no one driving for a living is making much headway in their livelyhood vs inflation or anything else.

If they don't unionize, at least management at Challenger is being forced to realize the drivers are feeling the pinch. At some point, maybe someone will wake up and realize they can't cut any more muscle off the body....

liner

01-25-2010, 01:34 AM

You know, you have been spreading your BS around here like you have all the answers and here is the one thing I do know: You have your agenda, period. You have this tirade going on about this because you don't want the union. I have no idea why you don't want it other than you figure you are a capitalist. My fanny you are, you own your own truck and sign an exclusive contract to pull someone else's trailer and someone else's freight. You are a contracted worker, a wage slave in my books. IF you want to be a true capitalist, tell Challenger you are getting your own running rights and go hustle up some freight, and buy your own trailer. Otherwise spare us all the Adam Smith award winning lecture.

First off, even tho I have defended the Teamsters, and was one for a few years, I am by nature a capitalist AND a conservative. I am all for capitalism. How does the Union fit into this? Well, if you are paying any amount of attention what the unions do is collectively negotiate the wages and benefits for the guys working at at company. THAT, and defend that contract. Nothing political in any of that. It is called creating and using leverage. All the political crap unions get into bugs me to no end, but that is only because most union members have a nap between contracts and don't demand their union leaders stay the Hell out of politics.

The point is the workers at Challenger are feeling like they are not getting a decent deal. There are 1800 of em or at least there were before the recession. How the hell would they get a raise? All take turns going into Dan's office? How about just doing a REALLY good job and hoping someone notices? Oh I know, sucking up to management by ratting out people? Oh that is brilliant.

Liner, if Challenger wasn't paying you enough per mile for you not to go broke, what do you do? Seriously, you asking for more money? How much leverage you have? ZERO buddy....unless management decides they don't want to lose their o/o's to bankruptcy. The company driver? He has no options. Quit, or suck it up...unless...he and the other guys decide to band together.

Liner, your anti-Teamster tirades are boring and quite frankly full of your own opinion and little fact. IT is YOUR crusade to get them out, because after all, you are just a PURE capitalist....and when Challenger asks you to take a 2 cent a mile cut or 10 cent a mile cut, you will just love it all because, hey you are a capitalist....business is slow right?

The boys and girls at Challenger will make up their own minds. Personally, if they feel they are tired of leaving one company after another, they will sign cards. Some might do it happily, and some may not, but you run a company and it gets unionized, you deserve it.

The reason there are not many union companies left in North America is because of the decline of manufacturing jobs and the growth in the service industry. That, and the unstable nature of the economy.

Are their bad unions? Yes...but if Challenger goes union, and the guys really push the Teamsters to do the job they deserve, then they will have the attention of management. They don't have it now. Liner, you seem ok with that, but alas, you being the big tycoon you are and all you may not have noticed that no one driving for a living is making much headway in their livelyhood vs inflation or anything else.

If they don't unionize, at least management at Challenger is being forced to realize the drivers are feeling the pinch. At some point, maybe someone will wake up and realize they can't cut any more muscle off the body....

You call my facts BS..that's fine with me if you can prove them wrong!.I'm just doing my best to keep a union out,while others on here are trying to get the union in.No law against that!

For some reason you and others can't seem to deal with that so you feel the need to attack me.That's fine and I won't lose any sleep over it.

Just remember this...when the teamsters have had there sorry butts sent down the road again after there second failed attempt at organizing CMF,then just maybe ,just maybe guys like you will GET IT and see the whole picture!

If my anti teamster tirades are boring...sorry but I thought this is where we were allowed to voice our opinions,just like you do.Deal with it cause you know what they say about opinions!

Mercenary

01-25-2010, 03:13 AM

Just remember this...when the teamsters have had there sorry butts sent down the road again after there second failed attempt at organizing CMF,then just maybe ,just maybe guys like you will GET IT and see the whole picture!

So....just out of curiosity...what is IT and what is the 'whole picture'?

maan

01-25-2010, 02:36 PM

So....just out of curiosity...what is IT and what is the 'whole picture'?

I would rather hear the details or facts also rather than one liners ..no pun intend.

Saying "I'd rather be shot" than signing a union card gives a clear message and it's up to each to talk about what they like but we pro union guys might learn something.

I'm union but wouldn't say at all I have no issues with unions and one is there's alota world politics involved in some more than others that as far as I'm concerned can take away greatly in money and time as far as basic representation to members (how's that for a loooooon sentence lol).

I don't have an issue with Unions pursuing the greater good but not at the expense of the members come first and Unions can be involved in things that most members could care less about.

There is certainly more to Unions than just representation and alot of us know practically nothing about the teamsters or what happened with Unions and trucking in the past. Sounds like alota folks got burnt but the only situation that comes to mind for me was the CN fiasco.

One thing I know about the teamsters is they are in the red and have a pretty good dept going.

MHL1965

01-25-2010, 05:59 PM

So....just out of curiosity...what is IT and what is the 'whole picture'?
I am curious for his grand theory of why the Teamsters would make things WORSE at CMF myself.

He doesn't want the union because he doesn't believe in them. That is fine, but when the company screws him around or does something he doesn't like, he wont have any recourse now will he? THAT is the point of the union.

He may have been a Teamster in the past, and I don't doubt if he was, maybe that local didn't do things right by him, and that is a valid complaint if he and others did go to the labour board to demand proper representation. Sometimes some business agents and locals are not up to snuff. That happens in all unions, not just the Teamsters. That said, you make things work by going over their head.

He doesn't like me calling him out because I refute him that things would be worse if the Teamsters did manage to pull this off. He also doesn't really read all my posts because I have said more than once I don't believe it will happen at Challenger. I also am not naive to believe that the company may not make positive changes to head the possiblity off. That said, Liner's way of dealing with issues with the boss is either to run away or kiss his behind I guess. I really have not gotten that answer from him either. All I hear is his take that the union will be the end of the world.

You know what Liner? If the Union gets in, and the end of the world comes, I will tell you that you were right if the union truly was the reason things went south. The reality is though that Challenger isn't going through good times right now, and it may or not survive in its current form. It think Einwechter over extended himself and THAT isn't the driver's fault, but I suspect they are feeling the pain of that decision and THAT is why the Union is getting traction.

MHL1965

01-25-2010, 06:03 PM

I would rather hear the details or facts also rather than one liners ..no pun intend.

Saying "I'd rather be shot" than signing a union card gives a clear message and it's up to each to talk about what they like but we pro union guys might learn something.

I'm union but wouldn't say at all I have no issues with unions and one is there's alota world politics involved in some more than others that as far as I'm concerned can take away greatly in money and time as far as basic representation to members (how's that for a loooooon sentence lol).

I don't have an issue with Unions pursuing the greater good but not at the expense of the members come first and Unions can be involved in things that most members could care less about.

There is certainly more to Unions than just representation and alot of us know practically nothing about the teamsters or what happened with Unions and trucking in the past. Sounds like alota folks got burnt but the only situation that comes to mind for me was the CN fiasco.

One thing I know about the teamsters is they are in the red and have a pretty good dept going.

Maan, how do you know they do? They might, I don't know, haven't been to a Teamster's meeting in years, but my local had a reading of the state of finances every month at the monthly meeting. The local was run basically to run on a break even basis, and for the most part, a small profit was made for future changes or crisis. Not sure what the national union's budget would be now, but unions have to reveal their finances to their members and I don't recall any crisis in the Canadian union AT all. The US union may be losing money, but the two branches have some financial independence.

There are a ton of assumptions being made here about the state of the union, about what drivers want, what driver's don't want, and the general health of the company. I guess everyone makes decisions based on their own interests, but if you are going to do that, do a little digging and ask questions. What is more, I am still waiting for anyone to tell me what the downside is for the guys at Challenger outside of paying union dues?

maan

01-25-2010, 09:52 PM

Maan, how do you know they do? They might, I don't know, haven't been to a Teamster's meeting in years, I was talking about the International body. Read about it somewhere but can't find the info so could be wrong but pretty sure it was about them running in the red.

At a quick google also, it appears the teamsters have had some issues with their finances and the US government in the recent past, but I know very little of it

MHL1965

01-25-2010, 10:44 PM

I was talking about the International body. Read about it somewhere but can't find the info so could be wrong but pretty sure it was about them running in the red.

At a quick google also, it appears the teamsters have had some issues with their finances and the US government in the recent past, but I know very little of it

That was more than a few years back. Jimmy Hoffa Jr. is the President now, and he was elected in the aftermath of the mismanagment before. However, while the two Teamster communities are connected and are brother's, for the most part the financial sides of the two are kept separate.

I can tell you right now that the way the Canadian Labour board runs things vis a vis unions and how they are allowed to operate, the unions cant get away with not representing their members and not having the cash at hands. If you pay 48 bucks a month in dues, you can pretty much bet about 44 of it never leaves the local....

liner

01-29-2010, 06:00 PM

Ok first of all I think that statements like ,"Have you ever thought of getting a group of "intelligent" drivers together,picking a spokesman and setting up a meeting with the top management"
is plain offensive.
Do you really think that they are a bunch of dummies???
Do you think it has not beeing tried?
It took years for them to get to be ****** to the point the are now, I'm sure theres got to be a few "inteligent" ones in there huh?

You had good success talking to high m0-anagment? good for you, again youre previledged and dont seems to understand that managment doesnt listen to the rest like they did for you.

Some of you guys have been there even before challenger was founded, but for the rest of us, were just passing thru.

trust me, I dont care much for unions and I've been asking about another solution and I dont read anything better yet.
I've been trying to get the problems out because it is the same problems that the industry have all over the place, it's taboo to talk about things like that at cmf or any other company, got to keep those problems hush hush.
Got to look good.
I dont care anymore because I'll most probably leave very soon anyway, because I'm getting tired of all this.

Sorry about highjacking the post with this BS again.

It seems to me like you would just rather complain then do anything yourself.Different people on here have made suggestions on ways to change things but you just shoot them all down.What the heck is offensive about that statement??I never said their a bunch of dummies,but you don't want to select just anyone to be your spokesmen!

You say its been tried...by who...and have you yourself ever tried this idea?

We had good success because we actually got off our butts and took our concerns to management ourselves ,not through a 3rd party. You seem to think for some reason we were privileged because we had some success.Not at all,we just did something about it OURSELVES instead of complaining to a 3rd party!

Don't knock this idea until you at least try,especially now that you have their attention with the threat of a union!

ralph

01-29-2010, 06:07 PM

Don't knock this idea until you at least try,especially now that you have their attention with the threat of a union!

Very good point Liner...I would think that Dan would open his door even wider at this point in time.

Pipeman

01-29-2010, 06:21 PM

Pipeman

01-29-2010, 06:23 PM

I can tell you that Larry McDonald is a very good organizer and I wish him luck. There's not many drivers out there other than Teamster's that can collect a Pension Fund upon retirement.

maan

01-29-2010, 07:00 PM

Holy ****!!! That was in the 1960's when Jimmy Hoffa abscounded with the Pension Trust Fund. And Bobby Kennedy had him prosecuted for it.

Jimmy Sr. disappeared, I think Jimmy Jr. will behave.

I was talkin jr stuff

ratfink

01-30-2010, 01:47 AM

It seems to me like you would just rather complain then do anything yourself.Different people on here have made suggestions on ways to change things but you just shoot them all down.What the heck is offensive about that statement??I never said their a bunch of dummies,but you don't want to select just anyone to be your spokesmen!

You say its been tried...by who...and have you yourself ever tried this idea?

We had good success because we actually got off our butts and took our concerns to management ourselves ,not through a 3rd party. You seem to think for some reason we were privileged because we had some success.Not at all,we just did something about it OURSELVES instead of complaining to a 3rd party!

Don't knock this idea until you at least try,especially now that you have their attention with the threat of a union!

You think I'm complaining?
Theres a difference between complaining and pointing out what's wrong with this industry.
Is it that bad?

Youre wrong about me shooting down suggestions too but all I heard from you have allready been tried by a lot of people + you can tell me all you want, or go after me all you want I dont care, I'm not the one who decides in this thing anyway.

Companies , all of them have the nasty habit of isolating the ones who are pointing out problems and shut them up and label them as trouble maker or whiners.
Maybe that's why a third party is necessary.

You say that you had good success?
good for you, obviously you got some previleges by negociating for yourselves that others wont get , and you claimed that the company treat everybody the same...

Is this the way to go? Is this the IT and the big picture you were talkin about?
All that drivers have to do is get a few (small % of drivers) go see managment and whatever problem they might have will be miraculously fixed?
So different group will have different rules or will be treated diffrently than others because they got off our butts as you say and went to managment?
Not sure about this.

I take offence about the way you put it,
Have you ever thought of getting a group of "intelligent" drivers together.
I dont judge your intelligence and wont do it either.
I'll argue, debate and even change my mind once convinced about any issues but I will not play the insult game.
You might have an advantage of language over me but I dont care.

All this thread is about a bunch of people who had enough of what's going on in this industry.

It doesn't mean that theyre less inteligent than you because a few of you guys got off your butts as you say and negociated for yourselves.
A big part why trucking is now is in trouble is because way too many people or little group of people negociated individually too often.

ralph

01-30-2010, 05:48 AM

ratfink

01-30-2010, 10:07 AM

Ratfink, I think what Line meant was to have a handful of drivers (no more than 5, 3 is better) and find drivers that are articulate, drivers that can explain themselves in a professional manner, drivers that are well spoken.

I know what you mean, but it's not about problems that only a few have.
I know that I posted a lot here but I only take the opportunity to point out and get in the open what's wrong with this industry.

Drivers are tired, frustrated of beeing turned into warm meat by a lot of middle and lower managmt in every company.

3 or 4 or any drivers wont be listened to, they'll end up with better loads, maybe a new run, a better truck.
Anything to make them happy and shut them up.
If they keep insisting, they will be singled out and labeled as whiners since they are the only one ready to voice problems (trust me on this one).

Dont think for a minute that some tried what you are proposing.
It's logical, porfessional and make sense but at the same time, if it got to this point it's because nobody listened, and again, it's like that with every company.

Mule Bleue

01-30-2010, 10:16 AM

Ratfink, I think what Line meant was to have a handful of drivers (no more than 5, 3 is better) and find drivers that are articulate, drivers that can explain themselves in a professional manner, drivers that are well spoken.

Look like lot of peoples do not understand is: All this been done in the past few years!!!! IT HAVE BEEN DONE WITH NO RESULTS!!!!!! Now do you understand? Do you really think that a bunch of drivers wake up one morning an decide to unionized CMF??? It just don't work like that. If we are this point it because things went wrong for a long while an nobody take the drivers seriously when they went to the office an tell managament what was going wrong, they didn't take it seriously, so now they pay the price for it.

The other factor that fear them ,is that once Cmf will be unionized it will have a dominos effect on the whole industry, Yeah. Belive me that's why Teamsters take it very seriously an that there's a lot of peoples watching what will be the very near future of that campaign.

Mule Bleue

01-30-2010, 10:36 AM

[quote=liner;27720]Ok here's the fact's. My numbers were a few years old so I added a few thousand to make it look better.According to the CLC the teamsters had 108,510 members in 2007.I saw the teamsters website claims 125,000 members but I kinda figured they always like to exaggerate things a little so I subtracted a few.You can also check the CLC website and it will show you how the percentage of union workers is declining every year

Look like you refuse to see things, Teamsters represent 125,000 + members in Canada. Every month the number is growing, they sure loose some as some compagny close, not much can't be done about-it, but they still growing an they are not alone, lot of others Union are growing in Canada!!! Not only in trucking but in all kind of industry. Sure for someone who is anti-union that is not a good news! You may not like Union but the thing is that they are here to stay, an they are really necessary to the economy in Canada.

liner

01-30-2010, 10:40 AM

Ratfink, I think what Liner meant was to have a handful of drivers (no more than 5, 3 is better) and find drivers that are articulate, drivers that can explain themselves in a professional manner, drivers that are well spoken.

Ratfink...That is exactly what I meant and it was not meant as an insult,Ralph just put it in better words.

We had some success because we TRIED,not because we were privileged.What ever success we had was enjoyed by ALL O/O's,not just a few,and I believe there were close to 300.

Can you honestly say that the company drivers or YOU have ever put together a small group of well spoken drivers and taken their concerns to management in Cambridge,not Dorval..and if you have,what were the results of those meetings??

I'm not naive enough to think all your problems will miraculously disappear by trying this,but I would think it's a least a good start to get some dialog started.Company's don't look at you as whiners and complainers if you come to them in a professional manner and have honest concerns!

Like I said before you should at least give it a try now that you have there attention.

liner

01-30-2010, 10:51 AM

ratfink

01-30-2010, 11:30 AM

Ratfink...That is exactly what I meant and it was not meant as an insult,Ralph just put it in better words.

We had some success because we TRIED,not because we were privileged.What ever success we had was enjoyed by ALL O/O's,not just a few,and I believe there were close to 300.

Can you honestly say that the company drivers or YOU have ever put together a small group of well spoken drivers and taken their concerns to management in Cambridge,not Dorval..and if you have,what were the results of those meetings??

I'm not naive enough to think all your problems will miraculously disappear by trying this,but I would think it's a least a good start to get some dialog started.Company's don't look at you as whiners and complainers if you come to them in a professional manner and have honest concerns!

Like I said before you should at least give it a try now that you have there attention.

Ok I understand what you mean then.
I know there were meetings for O/O, ok it worked because it was viewed as negociating with sub contractors.
But trust me, it's not the same when you try to debate company policies about senority, about a dispatch systm that some littlle napoleon "invented" (Yeah right) that doesn't work, system has been tried by schneider and JB long ago that didnt work then + they wasted tons of drivers for years before they realized it wasnt working.
I might not use the right words either but I know exactly what you mean.

And it's not only about dorval either. As far as I'm concerned, dorval managmnt is there to keep the store windows clean, they are on a power trip tho and it's one of the many things that p1ss drivers off.

It took a crisis to wake up things. I have no control over this and like I said, I use this crisis to point out what has bugged me not only where I work but in this industry.
It's not about beeing pro union, with time , I realized that unless companies have a gun pointed to theyre heads they wont move.
Now that a large player in the industry is targeted, a lot of attention is drawn and looking at how many viewed this thread, (8800 views 58 pages and more that 577 replies) a lot of people are listening.
This forum gives me a platform to express what all OTR companies are trying to put aside and sweep under the rug.
To denounce all the dirty little secrets and little tricks that got us where we are today.
To make people realize that we were reduced to worse than sweat shops workers in the name of productivity.
Am I going to strech my neck and put it on the block? no.
Guys have allready decided what action they were going to take.

Mule Bleue

01-30-2010, 11:44 AM

Ok here's the fact's. My numbers were a few years old so I added a few thousand to make it look better.According to the CLC the teamsters had 108,510 members in 2007.I saw the teamsters website claims 125,000 members but I kinda figured they always like to exaggerate things a little so I subtracted a few.You can also check the CLC website and it will show you how the percentage of union workers is declining every year, so I'm not just as you say "shooting all kind of wrong infos"!!

They may have added more NEW members in 2009,but they fail to mention how many members they lost in that same year!

Table 2

Labour Organizations with Largest Membership—2007

Name and Affiliation

Number of
Members

Canadian Union of Public Employees – CLC

548,880

National Union of Public and General Employees – CLC

340,000

United Steel, Paper and Forestry, Rubber, Manufacturing, Energy, Allied Industrial and Service Workers International Union – AFL-CIO/CLC

280,000

National Automobile, Aerospace, Transportation and General Workers Union of Canada (CAW Canada ) – CLC

265,000

United Food and Commercial Workers Canada – CtW/CLC

245,330

Canadian Teachers’ Federation

219,000

Public Service Alliance of Canada – CLC

166,960

Ontario Teachers’ Federation (1) – CLC

155,000

Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada – CLC

150,100

Canadian Federation of Nurses – CLC

135,000

Fédération de la santé et des services sociaux – CSN

117,130

Ontario Public Service Employees Union (2) – CLC

113,500

Teamsters Canada – CtW/CLC

108,510

Ok I understand what you mean then.
I know there were meetings for O/O, ok it worked because it was viewed as negociating with sub contractors.
But trust me, it's not the same when you try to debate company policies about senority, about a dispatch systm that some littlle napoleon "invented" (Yeah right) that doesn't work, system has been tried by schneider and JB long ago that didnt work then + they wasted tons of drivers for years before they realized it wasnt working.
I might not use the right words either but I know exactly what you mean.

And it's not only about dorval either. As far as I'm concerned, dorval managmnt is there to keep the store windows clean, they are on a power trip tho and it's one of the many things that p1ss drivers off.

It took a crisis to wake up things. I have no control over this and like I said, I use this crisis to point out what has bugged me not only where I work but in this industry.
It's not about beeing pro union, with time , I realized that unless companies have a gun pointed to theyre heads they wont move.
Now that a large player in the industry is targeted, a lot of attention is drawn and looking at how many viewed this thread, (8800 views 58 pages and more that 577 replies) a lot of people are listening.
This forum gives me a platform to express what all OTR companies are trying to put aside and sweep under the rug.
To denounce all the dirty little secrets and little tricks that got us where we are today.
To make people realize that we were reduced to worse than sweat shops workers in the name of productivity.
Am I going to strech my neck and put it on the block? no.
Guys have allready decided what action they were going to take.

More on the top of it read:
To unionize or not to unionize, that is the question
Posted by Harry Rudolfs at 04:32 PM

Really, I can't think of a topic that's more polarizing to the trucking community. And I should start by declaring my bias: working truck driver and IBT member as well as a freelance writer. In a past incarnation, I used to joke that I paid union dues to Jimmy Hoffa Jr., wrote copy for Conrad Black, and hauled sliced bread for Gaelen Weston. These days I'm just a peon in the Purolator linehaul network and I've never been politically active with any union or local. So the following is my opinion and doesn't represent anyone or anything. My brief survey of a few Challenger drivers below is unscientific and anecdotal in nature.

But Teamsters Canada president Bob Bouvier's vow to organize Callenger Motor Freight of Cambridge, Ont. might have less substance than his strident press release would have you believe. True, Challenger is in expansion mode and possibly some drivers are being courted by Teamsters, but the unionization process is never easy and this is a tight company with some very loyal employees.

My job puts me in contact with a variety of Challenger drivers almost daily and I'm always happy to ask them what they think. Everyone of them has heard about the Teamsters initiative, and the response varies from mild interest to disparaging comments.

“A union like that is only good for lazy drivers,” one Quebec driver told me. Well, not exactly, but a union environment makes it very difficult to fire drivers, and family companies faced with the prospect of a unionized work force are loathe to give up control of personnel issues.

The other side of the coin is that carriers paying top dollar don't have any trouble finding good drivers. Ideally, the lead hand system allows work to carry on without the presence of management. The drivers are supposed to be the best and most capable and should know what doors to fill, what runs have to go, etc., without the presence of a supervisor.

Another Challenger company driver, a former Teamster, told me he liked the job, but thought the base rate was a little low. Another man, a newly hired owner operator from the west coast told me he liked all the extras, free showers, laundry, etc. He added that his recruiter was incredibly attentive to him whenever he called in.

Stats Canada figures indicate that unionized drivers make a bit more than non-union drivers and work slightly less hours. From my perspective, after working for driver services and random carriers, I went gunning for the best paying jobs and they were usually union fleets.

But every month $61 from my paycheque goes to the IBT (I'd be curious to know how much stays in Canada and how much goes to the head office in Washington). Make no mistake, Teamsters are a big corporate union and historically have been able to get a good rate for their members. But it's not the only union model in Canada. If I remember correctly, roughly just under 20% of truck drivers are represented by a union in Canada. Besides IBT, Steelworkers, CAW, UFCW and Chemical Electrical and Paperworkers all have a trucking component as part of their membership.

No company welcomes unionization: it's too much trouble, it will reduce profits, they'll ask for too much, they'll be too strong and shut the plant down in the event of a dispute. But there are potential benefits to a union model. A collective agreement spells out exactly the duties and responsibilities of employees and management. And although the grievance system my be time-consuming, once a company gets to a certain size, it helps to have a standard disciplinary protocol in place. After a labour board ruling a few years back, Mackie Moving Systems of Oshawa, Ont. was organized by Teamsters local 938 and, unofficially, I don't think the process was particularly painful for either party.

Are drivers better off in a union? From my perspective. yes, but only very slightly and it really depends upon your situation. Some owner operators would never consider working for a union while others don't have any problem with a collective agreement. The Challenger drivers I talked to weren't exactly hopping out of their trucks to sign a union card

Most of the money stay here in Canada!!

maan

01-30-2010, 11:47 AM

Can you honestly say that the company drivers or YOU have ever put together a small group of well spoken drivers and taken their concerns to management in Cambridge,not Dorval..and if you have,what were the results of those meetings??

Too late now for that imo. The stage is not only set but in motion and let the chips fall where they may is what's playing out.

At some point and it seems to be the case here, there's no turning back. All it takes is determination by a few to move forward with a plan of action which is what's happening.

maan

01-30-2010, 12:02 PM

I simply pointed out the numbers from the CLC website that shows a decline in union membership across Canada year after year,not an increase.Go and check it out for yourself if you don't believe me.

Next thing you know there could be an upward surge. Doesn't mean anything to me that there has been a decline recently.

You will have ups and downs like anything else but the facts are there are ~ 4.5 mil union workers in Canada and I'm not aware of any major dissension in the ranks.

Unions are always under attack by the powers that be and they can certainly make inroads where there is a downward trend with Unions.

Mule Bleue

01-30-2010, 01:02 PM

Next thing you know there could be an upward surge. Doesn't mean anything to me that there has been a decline recently.

You will have ups and downs like anything else but the facts are there are ~ 4.5 mil union workers in Canada and I'm not aware of any major dissension in the ranks.

Unions are always under attack by the powers that be and they can certainly make inroads where there is a downward trend with Unions.

Also go listen to the video message of Mr Robert Bouvier that he address to the Cmf drivers, listen when he say that the peoples who will tell you that the Union is no go for the drivers is probaly someone who is a member of a Union; like lawyers, or other patronal association. You'll like it

liner

01-30-2010, 03:32 PM

Also go listen to the video message of Mr Robert Bouvier that he address to the Cmf drivers, listen when he say that the peoples who will tell you that the Union is no go for the drivers is probaly someone who is a member of a Union; like lawyers, or other patronal association. You'll like it

Funny how he things CMF is making ''tons of money"! Right now most company's are fighting to survive,not making tons of money.That statement just goes to show you how far out of touch from reality this guy is.

ralph

01-30-2010, 03:59 PM

Funny how he things CMF is making ''tons of money"! Right now most company's are fighting to survive,not making tons of money.That statement just goes to show you how far out of touch from reality this guy is.

How the FARK would anyone know the financials of CMF other than their banker and CMF ownership? Everyone else is speculating at best.

maan

01-30-2010, 04:27 PM

Just wanted to cover the "respect - money" thing from before where Liner said ~ "I thought it was about respect" after someone mentioned "money" and you only heard "respect" before that.

Money (or wages) is inherent with respect ..just better not to talk about (or even pursue) money or increased wages during a Union drive particularly in these times; no doubt the owner will pull the money (recession) woes card period against the Union coming in.

I'd have to look at the vid but I think the profit comments were a general statement that the CO has done well on the backs of the drivers.

MHL1965

01-31-2010, 03:35 AM

How the FARK would anyone know the financials of CMF other than their banker and CMF ownership? Everyone else is speculating at best.

Very true, we don't know what they made, but an educated guess says not as much as they did a year or so ago when they kept buying up assets.

The point is Challenger has been on a massive spending spree for a new building, new trucks, and buying other companies. That is fine, but the drivers are not seeing the gains in the pay check and the quality of work, they will get restless.

If the Challenger drive by the Teamster's works, then Dan over played his hand. I do know this much. I cant believe there isn't red ink somewhere on those books. I worked there for 6 months and came to the conclusion that there was a lot of waste in that organization, and I wasn't all that impressed by the quality of some of the managers. A mechanic told me then that the shop was terribly mis managed and the only reason a union drive hadn't happened in there because they were turning over a lot of guys who just got fed up and left.

Challenger I think will survive, but I love how Liner suggests that now they have the attention of management because of the Union threat. Gee Liner, I thought the union was just a bad idea? If the THREAT of it is the attention getter, that in itself is a good thing. You I see are quite willing to use the threat of something you don't have time for to get your point across.

The fact is 2 or 4 drivers approching management with some good ideas means diddly in a 1800 truck fleet. What is more, if management shut them up with some good runs or maybe a new truck, then THAT is just stupid management practice. All drivers until they prove they are idiots should more or less get simliar trucks, treatment and concern for their ideas. If a bunch of senior guys decide to approach management and say they want better runs and a raise, and the company gives it to them arbitrarily, they will have the union cards being signed faster than you can count. Guys don't want to be singled out as inferior. Bad drivers should be punished, but you dont' reward your best drivers with side deals and underhanded rewards to shut them up while ignoring the concerns of the rank and file. THAT was what I think you would have Liner if your idea went through.

What is more, as an o/o Liner you forget that all company guys wont get the ear of the same people an o/o will. Owner ops are always going to be listened to with different concerns because o/o's fill roles and niches in the system that are harder to replace. So you might think you personally have an ear of influence with management, but you are paying through the nose for that ear.

elmo

01-31-2010, 08:34 AM

No system is perfect.
There are downsides to the seniority system in that sometimes a better worker will be let go vs one who is less productive.
Lazy? Maybe in truckload but not tolerated in LTL be it a union or non-union company.

But there are upsides to seniority as well:
With no seniority system in place, a company can give all the good runs to lower-paid greenhorns while higher-paid guys with many years in get the table scraps.
This happens alot in OTR when freight goes sour and there is an over-supply of drivers.
Example: 5-year driver: 2500 mpw X .40 cpm = $1000
Newbie driver: 2500 mpw X .26 cpm = $650

How would you feel to have paid your dues and helped grow the company only to be starved out and tossed away like a used condom? Seniority prevents that.
Seniority prevents ###-kissers, backstabbers, etc from getting the better runs, better equipment, etc.
I worked at a non-union company where a driver would buy the dispatcher a Subway sandwich every time he came back from his run. Needless to say, guess who got all the gravy work?

So between a company that rewards seniority and one that doesn't, I'd feel better working for a company that rewards seniority.

my opinion.

ralph

01-31-2010, 08:57 AM

Very true, we don't know what they made, but an educated guess says not as much as they did a year or so ago when they kept buying up assets.

The point is Challenger has been on a massive spending spree for a new building, new trucks, and buying other companies. That is fine, but the drivers are not seeing the gains in the pay check and the quality of work, they will get restless.

You call a the new terminal spending, I call it investing. Were you ever in the old terminal on Queen St...I was and back in the early 90's it was so FULL you had to go onto the street (you just couldn't walk outside of the building) to change your mind it was so tight! They had fragmented drop yards here and there, the shop was no longer functionable and there was zero room for growth/expansion. Driver amenities were showers @ best...that's all there was and again no room for any more. 2 fuel hoses were all that were there and it was tight to manoveur around them. Compare it to a young family starting in a 2 bedroom apartment and all of a sudden there's a couple of kids! Something needs to give so Challenger chose to invest in a newer, more useable, more functional terminal. Have you seen the "DRIVER" amenities @ the new terminal? I am told they are second to none! That is spending/investing in who? What terminal would you prefer to work from...Queen Street was a muddy pravel pit with no room to fart, Maple Grove is spacious and clean. If you compare apples to apples I know where I am headed to...if I was/am looking that is.

As far as their acquisitions again these are typically "opportunities" that when presented to you, they are assessed and acted on if viable. Their "expansion" has typically been in non existing business units/divisions so it opened more doors to them in both the new and existing business entities. The Lodwick acquisition brought them reefer freight BUT also opened doors to those customers that required packaging materials and machinery that their existing divisions/entities did.

Your other comment about new trucks...well I don't think this needs explaining but I'll do it anyways. Remember that when Challenger makes a deal w/Freightliner/Volvo/Whomever they get their best pricing based on trends that are good for both them and the manufacturer. The manufacturer can/could still peddle used trucks that are 3 years old and have up to 800,000km's on them and Challenger is able to minimize their maintenance costs by leasing and turning in vehicles under that structure. Seems like a win/win to both parties doesn't it? We all know that more miles translates into higher operating costs and newer equipment doesn't/isn't supposed to break down as often. Many shippers require/prefer minimum average equipment ages to haul their freight.

I have said this before and I'll say it again "Profit is not a word you can't say at church/mass on Sunday morning"! People shouldn't ALWAYS think that because their employer drives a nice car/invests back in the business that he's stealing from the employees or "keeping them down". When a business gets to a certain size/magnitude customers get to expecting certain things of that business/vendor/supplier. Appearance and presence is only one of those things. When you compare Challenger to a carrier of their same/similar size I doubt things are different. I'm sure they have large and efficient terminals and driver amenities.

Excuse my lengthy response...I have shortened it as much as I could, but any more and it might have lost it's punch.

ralph

01-31-2010, 09:36 AM

tossed away like a used condom?

elmo...probably the BEST analogy I have ever heard/read! WELL PUT/SAID!

liner

01-31-2010, 01:36 PM

Very true, we don't know what they made, but an educated guess says not as much as they did a year or so ago when they kept buying up assets.

The point is Challenger has been on a massive spending spree for a new building, new trucks, and buying other companies. That is fine, but the drivers are not seeing the gains in the pay check and the quality of work, they will get restless.

If the Challenger drive by the Teamster's works, then Dan over played his hand. I do know this much. I cant believe there isn't red ink somewhere on those books. I worked there for 6 months and came to the conclusion that there was a lot of waste in that organization, and I wasn't all that impressed by the quality of some of the managers. A mechanic told me then that the shop was terribly mis managed and the only reason a union drive hadn't happened in there because they were turning over a lot of guys who just got fed up and left.

Challenger I think will survive, but I love how Liner suggests that now they have the attention of management because of the Union threat. Gee Liner, I thought the union was just a bad idea? If the THREAT of it is the attention getter, that in itself is a good thing. You I see are quite willing to use the threat of something you don't have time for to get your point across.

The fact is 2 or 4 drivers approching management with some good ideas means diddly in a 1800 truck fleet. What is more, if management shut them up with some good runs or maybe a new truck, then THAT is just stupid management practice. All drivers until they prove they are idiots should more or less get simliar trucks, treatment and concern for their ideas. If a bunch of senior guys decide to approach management and say they want better runs and a raise, and the company gives it to them arbitrarily, they will have the union cards being signed faster than you can count. Guys don't want to be singled out as inferior. Bad drivers should be punished, but you dont' reward your best drivers with side deals and underhanded rewards to shut them up while ignoring the concerns of the rank and file. THAT was what I think you would have Liner if your idea went through.

What is more, as an o/o Liner you forget that all company guys wont get the ear of the same people an o/o will. Owner ops are always going to be listened to with different concerns because o/o's fill roles and niches in the system that are harder to replace. So you might think you personally have an ear of influence with management, but you are paying through the nose for that ear.

Well people kept asking for my ideas and that was my suggestion on something to try other than union.Side deals don't work and nor should they,but that is not what I was suggesting.Get the right group of guys to deal with management and you might just be surprised at what can be accomplished.

You worked at CMF a whole six months so your the expert..what do you suggest would be a better way of doing things?And could you please explain how O/O's paid thru the nose for that "ear"?

Mule Bleue

01-31-2010, 02:12 PM

MHL1965

01-31-2010, 03:01 PM

Well people kept asking for my ideas and that was my suggestion on something to try other than union.Side deals don't work and nor should they,but that is not what I was suggesting.Get the right group of guys to deal with management and you might just be surprised at what can be accomplished.

You worked at CMF a whole six months so your the expert..what do you suggest would be a better way of doing things?And could you please explain how O/O's paid thru the nose for that "ear"?

Simple. You bought a truck. You are married to the job, you cant just walk away from it. You cant leave your contract with Challenger without some financial penalty but what that does buy you is a more sympathetic ear with management because you are a valuable asset in that sense that companies are more likely to listen to.

AS for getting a group of guys together, who would nominate in a company with 1800 drivers? Not new guys, so the same guys who have been there 15 to 20 years go in and talk to Dan. They may know him personally....you think they haven't been talking to him already? How do you know this hasn't been tried? The point is there is a lot of discontent if the Teamsters are sniffing around, and I suspect it started when guys who have been there a while have decided they would rather fight back than leave. They have been talking rationally to their supervisors all along Liner. It is naive to think that management hasn't heard the rumblings of discontent from drivers, but they haven't really seemed to react yet.

I said it before, I wont say that I think the Challenger union drive will succeed, I kind of think it will be a tough fight. I dont see CMF as the worst company out there by any measure, but I do know that the fact this effort is getting some play says to me there is a lot of guys upset out there, and THAT will make management listen.

MHL1965

01-31-2010, 03:18 PM

You call a the new terminal spending, I call it investing. Were you ever in the old terminal on Queen St...I was and back in the early 90's it was so FULL you had to go onto the street (you just couldn't walk outside of the building) to change your mind it was so tight! They had fragmented drop yards here and there, the shop was no longer functionable and there was zero room for growth/expansion. Driver amenities were showers @ best...that's all there was and again no room for any more. 2 fuel hoses were all that were there and it was tight to manoveur around them. Compare it to a young family starting in a 2 bedroom apartment and all of a sudden there's a couple of kids! Something needs to give so Challenger chose to invest in a newer, more useable, more functional terminal. Have you seen the "DRIVER" amenities @ the new terminal? I am told they are second to none! That is spending/investing in who? What terminal would you prefer to work from...Queen Street was a muddy pravel pit with no room to fart, Maple Grove is spacious and clean. If you compare apples to apples I know where I am headed to...if I was/am looking that is..

I hear you. It isn't that I think this was a bad idea BUT when you build a terminal as flashy as that Challenger terminal in Cambridge, the rank and file will figure Dan has a money tree in the back yard. Take away part of their pay for crossing the border and the like and reduce their miles, and the boys wont see that new terminal for what it is. I was never at the old one, but I heard how bad it was, but the danger in spending money to build new flashy buildings is that the drivers wont see this as you just did. I don't disagree with you, but you give the guys a raise and keep them at the old terminal, and they probably would still be as happy if not happier. In the end, it is about how much am I being rewarded for being on the road?

As far as their acquisitions again these are typically "opportunities" that when presented to you, they are assessed and acted on if viable. Their "expansion" has typically been in non existing business units/divisions so it opened more doors to them in both the new and existing business entities. The Lodwick acquisition brought them reefer freight BUT also opened doors to those customers that required packaging materials and machinery that their existing divisions/entities did..

Again, big picture, blue sky stuff. All the driver on the ground thinks is: I didn't get much of a raise and here is Dan buying up another company? A lot of this is perception. I get what Challenger is trying to do, but they are doing it with money that is being seen by the drivers as their future raises and/or benefits? Is it right for the drivers to think that way? Probably not....I get where Dan is thinking expansion, but it doesn't come across as a plus to the guy driving the same automatic freightshaker I drove with the slush box for 37 cents a mile....

Your other comment about new trucks...well I don't think this needs explaining but I'll do it anyways. Remember that when Challenger makes a deal w/Freightliner/Volvo/Whomever they get their best pricing based on trends that are good for both them and the manufacturer. The manufacturer can/could still peddle used trucks that are 3 years old and have up to 800,000km's on them and Challenger is able to minimize their maintenance costs by leasing and turning in vehicles under that structure. Seems like a win/win to both parties doesn't it? We all know that more miles translates into higher operating costs and newer equipment doesn't/isn't supposed to break down as often. Many shippers require/prefer minimum average equipment ages to haul their freight..

The new trucks. I drove a new Freighshaker Columbia with the Mercedes and the Automatic. It was bare bones. No fridge, No doors on the cabinet, just net. The window in the bunk broke on the second trip I had it and I had to duct tape it shut. The mechanics never got around to fixing it the next 5 months I was there. What is more, there was no insulation in the beast. I froze on a cold windy day. I had a Idle Kleen APU that was a JOKE. Dan was getting these trucks CHEAP and with the Auto in them, they are saying to the driver : "You are too dumb to treat a transmission with respect" On paper, great business move money wise. To the driver? The truck is about as bare bones as it gets. I realize he isn't going to get an O/O class of ride but it was clear to me that Challenger was buying trucks for the lowest common denominator. Maybe that is justified in the eyes of some but if you want top drivers, you have to respect the fact they will appreciate and look after a nicer truck. What is more, anyone who told you that those Mercedes and smart shift 10's were a good idea is dreaming. TERRIBLE truck in mountains with only 20000 lbs on board. How much does THAT just grate on a driver?

I have said this before and I'll say it again "Profit is not a word you can't say at church/mass on Sunday morning"! People shouldn't ALWAYS think that because their employer drives a nice car/invests back in the business that he's stealing from the employees or "keeping them down". When a business gets to a certain size/magnitude customers get to expecting certain things of that business/vendor/supplier. Appearance and presence is only one of those things. When you compare Challenger to a carrier of their same/similar size I doubt things are different. I'm sure they have large and efficient terminals and driver amenities.

Excuse my lengthy response...I have shortened it as much as I could, but any more and it might have lost it's punch.

I appreciate your passion, and I know if the company doesn't make a profit, then we are all doomed. I hate unions that come in and don't respect the profit incentive for the busienss. HOWEVER, if the driver does not feel he is being respected, he will sign a union card out of frustration, and to get someone to make management respect the driver. I have stated this a few times now and will state it again. I don't think Challenger WILL go union, because one some level they were a VERY good company and they were a profitable company but things are changing and they have gotten way too big and ignored some of the concerns of the drivers. I found working there I felt like I was dealing with the government. I was asked when I started whether I wanted a Volvo or a Freightliner. I asked for the Volvo, got the Freightshaker. When I asked why, they said they had no Volvo's. Then WHY give me the choice? STuff like that. If you had a complaint you had to go to all these little bureaucracies in the company. There was great people there, no question, and I thought the lady who ran the customs dept. was top drawer, but the whole outfit was rather corporate and that can alienate guys. What is more, the Dorval guys are in the same type of dumpy terminal the old Queen st one was. You think they don't look at Cambridge and not think "what are we mon ami? Chopped liver?"

Challenger I think was too aggressive in their growth, and they have alienated some guys, and that is where it is coming from. It isn't the best paying gig in OTR, nor the most prestigious so they need to realize the drivers look at the money spent on the terminal, the simulator, and takeovers, and they see it as not money that helps them. IT DOES, but they wont see it that way...and there is where you are in trouble....

liner

01-31-2010, 05:19 PM

Simple. You bought a truck. You are married to the job, you cant just walk away from it. You cant leave your contract with Challenger without some financial penalty but what that does buy you is a more sympathetic ear with management because you are a valuable asset in that sense that companies are more likely to listen to.

Sorry but I disagree here.Yes, I did buy a truck but I'm free to leave anytime and I've never been "married"to any job.

I said it before, I wont say that I think the Challenger union drive will succeed, I kind of think it will be a tough fight. I dont see CMF as the worst company out there by any measure, but I do know that the fact this effort is getting some play says to me there is a lot of guys upset out there, and THAT will make management listen.

I agree and was simply pointing out that now would be a good time to get there ear.You also said management will listen.....listen to who,a well spoken group of drivers ,or union? In my opinion they would be much more open to listen to drivers now,rather then face the possibility of dealing with a union later.

I guess I'll have to eat my words here because the union was good for something ,it got there attention.(never thought I'd hear myself say that).

liner

01-31-2010, 07:41 PM

Ok Liner: what part of " It have been done or try in the past few years an it haven't work" you do not understand???? You say that now they will be willing to listen!!! what the heck, it is now too lite , too late; do you understand that!!! I know that my english is not perfect but i'm trying to express to most clear possible an you just don't understand or I think that you just don't want to understand, yeah that must be it!

I understand but I think the pro-union guys are putting too much faith in the union actually winning.What happens when they lose..where does that leave you then? All I'm saying is that now would be a good time to meet with management since you now have there attention.It may not have worked in the past,but I believe you would be missing out on a great opportunity by not trying again. Just my opinion.

maan

01-31-2010, 08:11 PM

I doubt they are worried about what ifs.

liner

01-31-2010, 08:37 PM

I doubt they are worried about what ifs.

Maybe not but I think they should be taking into consideration that the union could lose.

maan

01-31-2010, 09:27 PM

That's what I'm talking about.

MHL1965

01-31-2010, 11:58 PM

I understand but I think the pro-union guys are putting too much faith in the union actually winning.What happens when they lose..where does that leave you then? All I'm saying is that now would be a good time to meet with management since you now have there attention.It may not have worked in the past,but I believe you would be missing out on a great opportunity by not trying again. Just my opinion.

I have detailed and talked many times on here Liner of the reluctance of guys to unionize. Most drivers don't want unions. I know a guy who left Verspeeten because he didn't want a union. Took a job making a buck and a half an hour less if you can believe it. So I believe there are those out there of how tough it is to even get enough guys together to get the union interested in putting money into a drive.

Challenger obviously wasn't listening in the last few years, and guys have had enough. It is TOO late to convince them obviously. IF Dan Einwecheter's company was not so big that he has lost some of the fine control he used to have, this likely would have been head off. Problem is, perception is management don't care for a lot of guys, and the gasoline is being poured and the match is lit. What happens now has to come from Management. I think when the rank and file are looking at a union as an alternative, the best thing management could do is head it all off at the pass. Put in raises, change some policy that is really creating issues. Why is this all on the drivers Liner? It is somehow their job to make management more perceptive? In a sense yes, but as I said, they are done talking. I suspect many people have asked management about issues and they have been told THAT's the way it is.

I do know this much, your ad hoc committee wont mean crap if management doesn't throw them a bone, and I have found that management doesn't need to be approached.

MHL1965

02-01-2010, 12:05 AM

Sorry but I disagree here.Yes, I did buy a truck but I'm free to leave anytime and I've never been "married"to any job.

Really? So if you decide you want to quit tomorrow, you can sell that truck and get your money out of it? Not in a hurry with this truck market. See, I quit driving as of December 19 of 09. I may go back to it, but I didn't have to worry about the truck payment or the consequences. I did what you suggested, tried to be reasonable with a boss and voice my concerns. I got blasted, and I let him know he wasn't the only Irishman in the room. You my friend can do this in theory, but if you have money in that truck that is owed, I am afraid you don't quite have the same concerns as I did. You have a few more obligations unless you own the rig outright...which I find isn't too rare, but rare enough.

I guess I'll have to eat my words here because the union was good for something ,it got there attention.(never thought I'd hear myself say that).

Well That was one of my points about 5 pages ago. The spectre of unionization usually does get management's attention. The problem is, if the guys have to do that to get their attention, then management wasn't doing a very good job of listening now were they? Again, I say this over and over, I don't think Challenger based on what I knew was that sort of company, but obviously not everyone saw it the same way I did. I cannot grasp why you are so negative about this. You own your own truck, you will survive no matter what happens. I do know this much: Unionization of Challenger would be justified if enough guys are that upset at management. This could send a shock wave across the industry and I cant see a downside to it as someone who was a company driver.

liner

02-01-2010, 12:36 AM

Really? So if you decide you want to quit tomorrow, you can sell that truck and get your money out of it? Not in a hurry with this truck market. See, I quit driving as of December 19 of 09. I may go back to it, but I didn't have to worry about the truck payment or the consequences. I did what you suggested, tried to be reasonable with a boss and voice my concerns. I got blasted, and I let him know he wasn't the only Irishman in the room. You my friend can do this in theory, but if you have money in that truck that is owed, I am afraid you don't quite have the same concerns as I did. You have a few more obligations unless you own the rig outright...which I find isn't too rare, but rare enough.

Agreed,and if I did quit tomorrow I wouldn't be looking to sell the truck,it's paid for and I have no plans on buying another one at my age. If I couldn't find a better job the truck would sit in the corner of my shop collecting dust until something came along.Geez,I may even consider driving a company truck for a while just to see what it's like on the other side.

MHL1965

02-01-2010, 04:37 PM

Agreed,and if I did quit tomorrow I wouldn't be looking to sell the truck,it's paid for and I have no plans on buying another one at my age. If I couldn't find a better job the truck would sit in the corner of my shop collecting dust until something came along.Geez,I may even consider driving a company truck for a while just to see what it's like on the other side.

Liner, that has been my point. It is a different world when you are a company driver because you don't get much of a voice. You are a worker bee....

Mr Bee

02-02-2010, 07:45 AM

Liner, that has been my point. It is a different world when you are a company driver because you don't get much of a voice. You are a worker bee....
I most cases, the O/O is a worker bee just supplying their own tools. When you change companies, you take your tools with you. Their is a lot to be said for owning your own truck. I did it successfully for 22 years. I don't think I would do it again. With the industry the way it is now, I do better driving for someone else.

MHL1965

02-02-2010, 12:08 PM

I most cases, the O/O is a worker bee just supplying their own tools. When you change companies, you take your tools with you. Their is a lot to be said for owning your own truck. I did it successfully for 22 years. I don't think I would do it again. With the industry the way it is now, I do better driving for someone else.

I am going to say just this: When the o/o's working for carriers catering to GM in Oshawa had their little protest a few years ago to get a fuel surcharge out of GM and their carriers, I don't recall them all being fired or being told to take their tools elsewhere. I do know that if 10 guys I worked with all starting around the same start time as I did decided we were not working until we got a raise, there would be 10 new guys there the next morning.....

O/o's pay more to play, but with that does come some measure of influence with the boss. That's fine, but my contention to Liner was that will all this talk of the union coming to Challenger, the company drivers would not and cannot see things as an O/o would because they don't have the same influence. He was suggesting a adhoc committee of good guys would get somewhere. I am of the contention that is a naive thought. It might work with O/o's....for as I showed in the above example, there are different levels of tolerence for disagreement for o/o's vs company drivers. Company drivers are just hunks of meat, and therefore it shouldn't be a surprise when they get mad and decide to organize if their concerns are not being listened to.

Mr Bee

02-02-2010, 11:25 PM

I am going to say just this: When the o/o's working for carriers catering to GM in Oshawa had their little protest a few years ago to get a fuel surcharge out of GM and their carriers, I don't recall them all being fired or being told to take their tools elsewhere. I do know that if 10 guys I worked with all starting around the same start time as I did decided we were not working until we got a raise, there would be 10 new guys there the next morning.....

O/o's pay more to play, but with that does come some measure of influence with the boss. That's fine, but my contention to Liner was that will all this talk of the union coming to Challenger, the company drivers would not and cannot see things as an O/o would because they don't have the same influence. He was suggesting a adhoc committee of good guys would get somewhere. I am of the contention that is a naive thought. It might work with O/o's....for as I showed in the above example, there are different levels of tolerence for disagreement for o/o's vs company drivers. Company drivers are just hunks of meat, and therefore it shouldn't be a surprise when they get mad and decide to organize if their concerns are not being listened to.
I said "IN MOST Cases" the O/O is a worker bee. The case you refer to is an isolated situation and I don't know enough about the circumstances to comment.

I was on with a large Canadian LTL carrier that had union company drivers and an assosiation that we as O/O's belonged. We had an excellent raport with the company and an agreement that was the envy of the industry. That was a group of owner operators that elected representatives to work on our behalf. There again, a circumstance that very few O/O's enjoy.

The first carrier I put a truck on with, had an 85% turnover rate. It was an all O/O carrier. If you don't like it, leave. That's the way MOST carriers are. They don't care. When you take your truck and leave, someone else is walking in the door.

The same thing goes with never never lease plans. The carrier talks you into a lease plan, making all kind of sweat talk promises about the better life you'll have. All they really want is for someone to take the financial responsibility for a truck the leasee will never own. Less than 20% of lease operators ever survive the term of the lease. When you are down the road kicking stones, the carriers just find someone else to take over the truck, and the cycle continues.

With a few exceptions, owner operators, lease operators and drivers are all worker bees, just tools the carriers use.

MHL1965

02-05-2010, 04:58 PM

I said "IN MOST Cases" the O/O is a worker bee. The case you refer to is an isolated situation and I don't know enough about the circumstances to comment.

I was on with a large Canadian LTL carrier that had union company drivers and an assosiation that we as O/O's belonged. We had an excellent raport with the company and an agreement that was the envy of the industry. That was a group of owner operators that elected representatives to work on our behalf. There again, a circumstance that very few O/O's enjoy.

The first carrier I put a truck on with, had an 85% turnover rate. It was an all O/O carrier. If you don't like it, leave. That's the way MOST carriers are. They don't care. When you take your truck and leave, someone else is walking in the door.

The same thing goes with never never lease plans. The carrier talks you into a lease plan, making all kind of sweat talk promises about the better life you'll have. All they really want is for someone to take the financial responsibility for a truck the leasee will never own. Less than 20% of lease operators ever survive the term of the lease. When you are down the road kicking stones, the carriers just find someone else to take over the truck, and the cycle continues.

With a few exceptions, owner operators, lease operators and drivers are all worker bees, just tools the carriers use.

True, but I know at the carriers I have been with the o/o's still had a relationship with the company that was different than what us company guys had.

Company guys? well if the company doesn't care about people they are essentially business partners with (o/o's) then you can guess how low beyond pond scum drivers can be in the eyes of management.

Mule Bleue

02-06-2010, 05:33 PM

Maybe not but I think they should be taking into consideration that the union could lose.

Well my friend it is not of our intention, neither Teamsters intention, to lose or quit on it, it will take all the time that it take but we will make it thru!!

liner

02-06-2010, 06:07 PM

Well my friend it is not of our intention, neither Teamsters intention, to lose or quit on it, it will take all the time that it take but we will make it thru!!

Well all I will say is this my friend...things don't look or sound real good for your side right now .You have your work cut out for you!!

Mule Bleue

02-06-2010, 08:27 PM

Well all I will say is this my friend...things don't look or sound real good for your side right now .You have your work cut out for you!!

We are working on it. Yes it will take time but remember there's not time limit!!!

MHL1965

02-09-2010, 05:06 PM

Well all I will say is this my friend...things don't look or sound real good for your side right now .You have your work cut out for you!!

That is of course your opinion...based on talking to whom?? Who really is admitting right now they signed union cards eh?

Pipeman

02-09-2010, 07:54 PM

That is of course your opinion...based on talking to whom?? Who really is admitting right now they signed union cards eh?Gotta be in Calgary and wabasca the next couple days. I will call Larry McDonald when I get back.

MHL1965

02-10-2010, 01:10 PM

Gotta be in Calgary and wabasca the next couple days. I will call Larry McDonald when I get back.

I was informed Larry had retired, which is the Teamster's loss. I have the utmost respect for Larry. I suspect though he is connected to what is going on....

maan

02-14-2010, 02:14 AM

http://www.unionbusting101.com/

During an organizing campaign, 82% of employers will hire a union busting firm, and their strategies are generally similar. Consultants encourage employers to unfairly exert their power by holding captive audience meetings, forcing employees into one-on-one meetings with supervisors, and systematically undermining the law by firing or suspending union supporters. The ability for consultants and employers to break the law without repercussions, and to use fear and coercion to discourage employees from voting for a union is a major reason why we desperately need to pass the Employee Free Choice Act. (http://www.massaflcio.org/node/3612)

liner

02-14-2010, 09:27 AM

http://www.unionbusting101.com/

Kinda looks like these unions can't handle the fact that someone else is resorting to the same under handed tactics against them that they use to recruit new members. Kinda like whats good for the goose...................

:rofl2[1]:

liner

03-01-2010, 01:57 PM

An interesting read over at the Truck News site>

Harry Rudolfs
Updated - Feb 23, 2010 13:14PM
who will speak for truck drivers

So who's left to speak for us? I don’t think I’ve ever heard Teamsters Canada president Bob Bouvier speak on anything. With all the challenges of dwindling membership, recent attempts to organize casino and McDonald's workers have failed. And the drive to sign disgruntled Challenger drivers might have already stalled out--haven't heard much about it.

http://blogtn.trucknews.com/2010/02/who_will_speak_for_truck_drive.htm

maan

03-01-2010, 02:25 PM

Who can be bothered with as the article indicates sheep.

MHL1965

03-06-2010, 12:33 AM

Kinda looks like these unions can't handle the fact that someone else is resorting to the same under handed tactics against them that they use to recruit new members. Kinda like whats good for the goose...................

:rofl2[1]:

Nothing underhanded about what Unions do. You just have a dog in this fight you are not declaring I suspect....never mind the truth, spread lies.

Don't worry tho....no one has taken most of what you have said credibly. Show me one INSTANCE of underhanded or untethical tactics to get guys to sign union cards. Whereas we do know how companies hassle and threaten employees.

I am not a big fan of librealizing the law to make unionization harder tho...because I like when a union gets in with it tough as it is, you can definaetly see the employer's for the P@#$s they are....

liner

03-06-2010, 01:10 AM

Nothing underhanded about what Unions do.

Now that statement has to be the "joke of the week".Things were pretty quite here while you were missing MHL1965,but I see you are back stirring things up again by spewing your same lame union drivel ! Welcome back!

Mule Bleue

03-07-2010, 12:12 PM

Now that statement has to be the "joke of the week".Things were pretty quite here while you were missing MHL1965,but I see you are back stirring things up again by spewing your same lame union drivel ! Welcome back!

Well Liner things don't change with you hey! THe day that we will have the accreditation from Canada Labor, yes it will take time ,but we will not failed we will WIN!!!!!!!!! That day I will go see you an ask: what's your plan!!!

One thing that you do not realize , you an all the anti Union or Teamsters,is that Teamsters will make it thru how ever negative you can be, it will not affect the campaign. We are the Champions we will WIN. OK

liner

03-07-2010, 12:29 PM

Well Liner things don't change with you hey! THe day that we will have the accreditation from Canada Labor, yes it will take time ,but we will not failed we will WIN!!!!!!!!! That day I will go see you an ask: what's your plan!!!

One thing that you do not realize , you an all the anti Union or Teamsters,is that Teamsters will make it thru how ever negative you can be, it will not affect the campaign. We are the Champions we will WIN. OK

No ,sorry to disappoint you but things haven't changed with me.When you get accredited by Canada Labour please come and see me because I will probably be living in a retirement home by then and would appreciate visitors.

Mule Bleue

03-07-2010, 12:50 PM

[quote=liner;29923]An interesting read over at the Truck News site>

Harry Rudolfs
Updated - Feb 23, 2010 13:14PM
who will speak for truck drivers

So who's left to speak for us? I don’t think I’ve ever heard Teamsters Canada president Bob Bouvier speak on anything. With all the challenges of dwindling membership, recent attempts to organize casino and McDonald's workers have failed. And the drive to sign disgruntled Challenger drivers might have already stalled out--haven't heard much about it.

Have you ever meet Robert Bouvier??? Did you ever take some of your precious time to talk with him?? I guees not, i really doubt that you have ever done that! So that mean to me that you don't have a clue of what you are talking about. I've meet Robert Bouvier few time, talk with him. I've also talk with few organiser of Teamsters , so I know what those Men an Women have in their stomach, yes they do not represent only truck driver like all the other Union they do diversify, but they still remain the best Union to represent US, unless you do have a better suggestion??

Mule Bleue

03-07-2010, 12:53 PM

HOOO Liner do you plan to retire in the next few months??

liner

03-07-2010, 02:02 PM

[quote=liner;29923]
Have you ever meet Robert Bouvier??? Did you ever take some of your precious time to talk with him?? I guees not, i really doubt that you have ever done that! So that mean to me that you don't have a clue of what you are talking about. I've meet Robert Bouvier few time, talk with him. I've also talk with few organiser of Teamsters , so I know what those Men an Women have in their stomach, yes they do not represent only truck driver like all the other Union they do diversify, but they still remain the best Union to represent US, unless you do have a better suggestion??

Knowing how I feel about the Teamsters I can't imagine why you would ask that question,but the answer is no, I have never met Robert Bouvier nor do I ever intent to meet him.He may speak for you but he sure doesn't speak for me.!

I believe I also know what the men and women organizers have in their stomachs....but I'll be polite and not repeat it on here.LOL

liner

03-07-2010, 02:26 PM

HOOO Liner do you plan to retire in the next few months??

No..not quite that soon.Has Mr Bouvier got you believing they will be in that quick.They better step up the pace by about %100 for that to happen.

Oh, and those cheap blue teamster stickers you pro-union guys have been putting on the trailers.....most come off very easy,and my stickers will fit quite nicely over the ones that don't.Don't be so cheap and spend a little more of that teamster money to at least get some good stickers that don't fade away after they get wet a few times.

Just doing my part to help your cause with a few suggestions on how to improve your union drive!!

Mule Bleue

03-10-2010, 07:53 AM

No..not quite that soon.Has Mr Bouvier got you believing they will be in that quick.They better step up the pace by about %100 for that to happen.

Oh, and those cheap blue teamster stickers you pro-union guys have been putting on the trailers.....most come off very easy,and my stickers will fit quite nicely over the ones that don't.Don't be so cheap and spend a little more of that teamster money to at least get some good stickers that don't fade away after they get wet a few times.

Just doing my part to help your cause with a few suggestions on how to improve your union drive!!

Hey Liner, at least you can see those blue stickers, haven't seen any of yours yet!!:rofl2[1]: Are they existing? or they are only in your mind?? Will be interesting to see them an ask Dan what he think about your bright idea!!
Have a great day

liner

03-10-2010, 09:03 AM

Hey Liner, at least you can see those blue stickers, haven't seen any of yours yet!!:rofl2[1]: Are they existing? or they are only in your mind?? Will be interesting to see them an ask Dan what he think about your bright idea!!
Have a great day

I'm sure Dan would just love to have that conversation with you.:rofl2[1]:

You will see the the stickers on O/O's trucks,but we aren't dumb enough to put them on company owned equipment.

Mule Bleue

03-10-2010, 11:29 AM

Yes for sure Liner, but tell me you didn't awnser my questions; where are your famous stickers??? Very curious to see them!!!:blue[1]:

buzzy

03-10-2010, 12:00 PM

Yes for sure Liner, but tell me you didn't awnser my questions; where are your famous stickers??? Very curious to see them!!!:blue[1]:

Placing unauthorized decals on company vehicles could be cause for dismissal. (Check the clause regarding abusing company equipment in your sign on package)

The owner ops can put them on their vehicles because they own them.

ratfink

03-10-2010, 03:27 PM

(Check the clause regarding abusing company equipment in your sign on package)

The owner ops can put them on their vehicles because they own them.

You have one of those "sign on package" buzzy?

And for the stickers? They must hide them because I havn't seen any stickers, Pro or anti on any trucks or trailers yet.

Mule Bleue

03-10-2010, 03:31 PM

Placing unauthorized decals on company vehicles could be cause for dismissal. (Check the clause regarding abusing company equipment in your sign on package)

The owner ops can put them on their vehicles because they own them.

Buzzy, go check previous message of Liner, he first notice about the stickers, saying that his sticker will cover the blue one, but so far haven't seen any of his !!!

liner

03-10-2010, 04:07 PM

Yes for sure Liner, but tell me you didn't awnser my questions; where are your famous stickers??? Very curious to see them!!!:blue[1]:

I just told you.....on the O/O's trucks , not company trucks....Why, would you like some because I have a few left and they look pretty good on blue trucks?

Go back and read my post...I said they will fit quite nicely over the blue stickers,I didn't say I was stupid enough to put them on!!

liner

03-10-2010, 04:18 PM

You have one of those "sign on package" buzzy?

Imagine that....someone that doesn't even work at CMF took the time to read "the package" unlike untold others that couldn't be bothered and then have the nerve to complain about it years later.:duh2[1]::duh2[1]:

Nothings_Shocking

03-10-2010, 04:34 PM

liner

03-10-2010, 11:52 PM

Not trying to be a prick or anything and im not gonna throw around names but some of you guys need to learn how to multi quote instead of makeing multiple posts one after the other:toss:......unless your just trying to raise your post count:36_1_10[1]:

Yes for sure Liner, but tell me you didn't awnser my questions; where are your famous stickers??? Very curious to see them!!!:blue[1]:

You have one of those "sign on package" buzzy?

And for the stickers? They must hide them because I havn't seen any stickers, Pro or anti on any trucks or trailers yet.

Hey it worked......this dumb old truck driver learned something new today.

ratfink

03-11-2010, 12:29 AM

Imagine that....someone that doesn't even work at CMF took the time to read "the package" unlike untold others that couldn't be bothered and then have the nerve to complain about it years later.

Man you have no clue huh?

liner

03-11-2010, 12:47 AM

Man you have no clue huh?

Guess not....please enlighten me!!

ratfink

03-11-2010, 12:54 AM

64 pages and you still need some explanations?

Anyway it doesn't matter to me anymore.

liner

03-11-2010, 01:08 AM

Anyway it doesn't matter to me anymore.

Oh Oh....you didn't quit did you,after all these years at CMF?

ratfink

03-11-2010, 01:20 AM

Quit? who talked about quiting?

liner

03-11-2010, 01:29 AM

Quit? who talked about quiting?

You did....a while back you said you didn't think you would be around CMF much longer,so when your post said it didn't matter anymore I just thought maybe you had quit.My mistake.

buzzy

03-11-2010, 01:33 PM

You have one of those "sign on package" buzzy?

Actually I did read it, 3 years ago when I'd decided to give up flat-bedding. I talked with recruiting and was impressed until I heard all the whining and crying by the company guys.

:36_7_11[1]::1hi5:

ratfink

03-11-2010, 02:26 PM

Whining and crying huh?
Is this what this thread is turning into?

Who's gonna have the best answer to shut the other up?

Ever since this thread started I tried to point out the problems that we all have in this industry.

Not targeting CMF alone, but all OTR companies since they all have the same bad habits.

Since the past 20 years and even more OTR trucking have degraded to the point that we are working for next to nothing and our time is worth nothing, the system in place has no respect for drivers or theyre families.

You know why?
It's because since the deregulation,
WE let them do it.
WE let them abuse us by not paying us.
We let them waste our time.

what makes me mad is that a couples of you guys keep ridiculizing the men and women that are fed up enough and at least trying to do something to change the BS mentality that exist in OTR trucking just because you dont agree with them.

I agree that unions might not be the best answer and stated that many times.

Today, some of you guys are near the end of your carreer and well established, (truck or house paid etc.) and dont care about what a young driver has to go thru to make an honest living in this industry.

WE had a good run since then, but WE also destroyed this industry.

I read a lot of " hey, it's in the sign on contract, you have a choice to take it or leave it"

BS if you think a guy or gal starting out in this industry has a choice, well I got some bad news for you,
You are completely disconnected from the reality.
We're not in the 70's 80's or 90's.

And dont BS me about beeing O/O or consultant or whatever title you give yourselves to make yourselves look better.
We're all truckers.

These people are at least trying and appart treating them like varnin, what are you guys doing to help ?
:8_4_53[1]:

buzzy

03-11-2010, 04:08 PM

I read a lot of " hey, it's in the sign on contract, you have a choice to take it or leave it"

Do you always sign a contract before you read it?????

You do have a choice...... if you don't like the company policies NO ONE is twisting your arm to work there!

Misuse/ abuse of company equipment is a vague clause that can bite uyou in the butt if you aren't careful. UNION or not!!

:36_1_4[1]:

bikerboy

03-11-2010, 04:26 PM

buzzy

03-11-2010, 04:44 PM

I think he meant some new guys really have no choice, if they are just starting out and been looking for a job for months and broke, of course they have to take the first job they are offered, no matter what the pay and other things involved.

No one HAS to take a job if they aren't comfortable with the conditions of employment.

Once you sign the agreement, your *** is in a sling. Union or not... you break a policy you signed...... you're going to get a slap on the ear or worse.

buzzy

03-11-2010, 04:50 PM

If you believe the drivel a union rep is spoon feeding you, then I have a case of towels to sell to help you wipe your tears.

The only people that profit from a union are at the top of the pyramid.

The little guys at the bottom of the pile do the financing.

OH BTW....... pyramid schemes are now illegal in Canada and the U.S.

Mercenary

03-11-2010, 04:52 PM

As you all know I am one of those newbies starting out. I would work for Challenger in a heart beat. I spoke to their recruiter a couple of months back and he seemed to think I have a good chance once things turn around. That said I would be looking for something better down the road once I had two years under my belt.

I guess it really comes down to what you are willing to put up with. Oilfield trucking pays much better than OTR but you have to deal with lots of mud and crap in the summer and tons of chain ups during the winter. Lots of OTR guys complain about long waits at loading docks and whatnot...well I have spent DAYS waiting on oil patch leases waiting for something to happen. Fuel haulers and chip haulers have their own crap to deal with too. Every aspect of trucking has some draw backs. However if you can make a decent living at it and not go broke in the process then truck driving is a wonderful career.

I would like to see something positive happen in OTR trucking soon. It seems to be like a rite of passage for the newbies...put up with some crap for a couple of years and then you can write your own ticket.

ratfink

03-11-2010, 11:42 PM

I think he meant some new guys really have no choice, if they are just starting out and been looking for a job for months and broke, of course they have to take the first job they are offered, no matter what the pay and other things involved.

Howcome Bikerboy you understood what I meant?
I know my english is not that good but you understood.

Like I said, if you cant see or dont want to see that OTR is in troubles and pi$$ on the people who are at least doing something about it.

Then you are disconnected from reality.

It's not an union thing, In reality it's far from it.
It's some people who are standing up and trying to fix the mess our generation left behind instead of judging others.

Like it or not.

bikerboy

03-11-2010, 11:51 PM

Yes i know what you mean, but the problem is, there's no easy fixes to this mess.

ratfink

03-12-2010, 12:13 AM

Yes i know what you mean, but the problem is, there's no easy fixes to this mess.

Thanks, I was starting to doubt.

No there no easy fix and it's gonna hurt trying to fix it.
Theres too much complaisance (not sure if it's the right word)
Too much judging each other,
Too much BS.

But if we keep hiding behind our little individual comfort zone or keep our head in the sand, well it's going to get worse.

Simple as that.

ratfink

03-12-2010, 09:02 AM

Excuse me all to hell but we are not all truckers !!!!!!!!
Don't try to tell me about the poor people starting out --- when I started I worked two jobs to keep food on the table.

Yeah right,

When you started out, unlike today we were pretty loose.
I remember a time when we didn't have any logbooks.
I remember a time when border crossing was a breeze,
No fingerprinting for a fast card.
I remember a time when we could actually talk to a real dispatcher, not a "driver manager" or a robot.

You want to talk about "contract" I remember a time when companies were not putting people under contract. They hired them and a driver just had to prove he could drive and do the job.
That's the world you come from and it's not the same young drivers have to face.

Unlike today, there was way much less regulation or rules where a driver can leave his pay in fines when he's catched making a mistake not following them.

We could hold 2 jobs allright, try that with today's OTR reality.

Tell me when a driver can have another job when ALL of his or her time is wasted?

Stop living in your little world and compare yesterday's trucking with what we are stuck with today.

If we could go back in time and take a driver of the 70' 80' and bring him back today and sit him in a truck.

He wouldn't even be qualified to drive today with all the BS today's driver has to face.
He would'nt understand why he has to wait 36 hrs in a truckstop to reset his log book for example, I could go on a and on.
He would be reprimanded or put out of service in an hour.

So stop living in the past and look around.

Yes there's a lot of whining and crying.
that's human nature. It was always there.

The proof? we keep hearing you guys whining and crying about other drivers who dont have your marvelous attitude that got us where we are today!

Plumbing , electrician whatever the trade, theres allway's somebody not happy.
But a lot are just not putting up with the BS anymore and are at least trying to stop the nonsense.
You have a problem with that?
you dont like the way new drivers are trying to fix the mess,

Big deal, practice what you preach and get out of it.

Oh and I dont care if you dont want to be associate with this. we are all truckers like it or not.
Stop looking down on everybody.

buzzy

03-12-2010, 09:29 AM

Stop living in your little world and compare yesterday's trucking with what we are stuck with today.

If we could go back in time and take a driver of the 70' 80' and bring him back today and sit him in a truck.

He wouldn't even be qualified to drive today with all the BS today's driver has to face.
He would'nt understand why he has to wait 36 hrs in a truckstop to reset his log book for example, I could go on a and on.
He would be reprimanded or put out of service in an hour.

What a crock of bull manure!!!!!!!!!!!

Bookworm, Ralph, Liner, Pipeman, and the rest of us survived the changes in the past 40 years just fine.

Your problem is WE HOLD OUR WORK ETHICS HIGHER THAN YOURS.

OH yeah while I'm at it............. those of us that did our time worked our way up the ranks from "swamper", grease monkey, local driver, regional driver, OTR, trainer and on up to dispatchers, owner-operators consultants, managers, company owners or directors.

We did it without complaining in a world where we helped each other with repairs, loading/unloading, tarping, etc without every looking for a dime in return. It didn't matter who you worked for, if a guy was having problems we all stopped.

We did it with open window air-conditioning, under-powered equipment and manual labour.

We helped make changes for the better, as our mentors did before us and our trainees will do after us.

Don't tell us we don't know what it's like. We've been there, got the tee-shirts and the video.

Now you can't get 2 drivers from the same company to help each other. Hell, you can't get to guys from the same company to look at each other.

Mercenary

03-12-2010, 10:11 AM

Your problem is WE HOLD OUR WORK ETHICS HIGHER THAN YOURS.

Hang on here.....That really isn't a fair statement. Why would wanting fair compensation for a days work be considered having a low work ethic? You keep talking about the good ole days in trucking, why flack us folks who are looking for more of the same?

Its not about work ethic. I will work quite hard for any company willing to compensate me fairly.

ratfink

03-12-2010, 10:36 AM

crock of bull manure huh?

I'm not talking about work ethics, I'm talking how salaries in OTR got to this point.
In all the examples you give, you talk about how we interacted each others.
It's all nice but is has nothing to do with what I talk about. it has nothing to do with salary or how companies are wasting our time.

you talk about how we helped each others, I agree with you it's all gone and it's sad.
But its like that in every trade.
Today's generation is not the same we grew up with.
They dont think the same way we did, dont act the same way we did.

What I'm talking about is that it is not the same world we lived in 20 years ago.

I'm not trashing the old guys my dad was one of them, I'm one of them but I realize today that when derugulation came, we forgot to ask for our fair share of salary.

We were too buzy working our rear ends off we didnt notice or didnt realize that companies were skinning our salaries bit by bit to make more profit and dumping all of theyre employers responsibilities on our back.

you say,
"Hell, you can't get to guys from the same company to look at each other."

well when some of them finally got together to help eachother like we saw in this thread, look how you react.

You pi$$ on them because you dont agree how they do it.

It has nothing to do with work ethics.

The good old days are gone. deal with it!
And were they that good????

liner

03-12-2010, 10:50 AM

Yeah right,

When you started out, unlike today we were pretty loose.
I remember a time when we didn't have any logbooks.
I remember a time when border crossing was a breeze,
No fingerprinting for a fast card.

The good old days....Yeah right!! Drive 18-24 hrs in a under powered truck with no bunk,AC,radio,air ride seat etc,etc, and then sleep on a board between the seats.No log books...just another reason to run you even harder!Todays new breed don't realize how good they have things.Heck these guys today won't even leave the yard if the AC is busted!!They wouldn't last a day under the old conditions,and they can thank us old timer's that they don't have to work like that anymore.

Border crossing a breeze...Yeah right! Stop at Canada customs to hand in B13's,park in lot(if you could find a spot)go see the broker,wait in line,go to customs counter wait in line etc,etc! Heck now you pull up to the booth,flash a card or two, and your on your way.Whats so bad about getting finger printed for a fast card(that the company pays for)if it saves you time at the border.

If young drivers have it so tough why did they choose this career,and don't try and give me "they didn't know what they were getting into" BS. OTR trucking is what it is,and obviously it's not for everyone.

OTR is far from perfect but all this constant whining is getting pathetic,and the ones that think the teamsters can wave their "magic wand" and fix everything.........DREAM ON!!!

ratfink

03-12-2010, 11:05 AM

Whatever.
Like I said, I dont care anymore.

Everybody's wrong ...except you guys.

ratfink

03-12-2010, 11:21 AM

The good old days....Yeah right!! Drive 18-24 hrs in a under powered truck with no bunk,AC,radio,air ride seat etc,etc, and then sleep on a board between the seats.No log books...just another reason to run you even harder!Todays new breed don't realize how good they have things.Heck these guys today won't even leave the yard if the AC is busted!!They wouldn't last a day under the old conditions,and they can thank us old timer's that they don't have to work like that anymore.

Yeah they can thank old timers alll right for screwing up the pay by doing all this hard work and not ask to be compensated for it.

yeah they should kiss your boots for making things right.
And be ******** on by you guys because they at least trying to do something about it.
Again, I'll try again.
I agree that union is not the best route for it, but what did you do about it?

What did you do for them exactly? what is it they should thank you for?
not having to work like that anymore???

You have nothing to do with this, you ran hard because it was the big macho thing to do and it was the way trucking was.

You stopped running hard like that because laws were finally enforced and companies are now responsible for logs and stuff like that.
Funny huh? when drivers were responsible for the tickets they made you run hard and now that they are responsible... well got to obey the law now.
You had nothing to do about that.

liner

03-12-2010, 11:41 AM

You have nothing to do with this, you ran hard because it was the big macho thing to do and it was the way trucking was.

Y.

That's right...it was the way trucking was and we didn't constantly whine about it!We went and did what had to be done without someone like a union holding our hand...unlike today's new breed!

Like I said before,I don't have the answers but then I'm not the one with all the complaints!
What have YOU done to fix anything??

ratfink

03-12-2010, 03:23 PM

That's right...it was the way trucking was and we didn't constantly whine about it!We went and did what had to be done without someone like a union holding our hand...unlike today's new breed!

Like I said before,I don't have the answers but then I'm not the one with all the complaints!
What have YOU done to fix anything??

That's right, todays new breed of people are soooo bad huh?
Of course you dont have to complain, you are well treated.
Minimize it all you want, you are and have been previledged.

I dont have all the answer either, and I did the same thing you did, ran hard, did all the work not worrying about the pay because that was the way to do things.
That was trucking.

The only difference is that I woke up and wont put up with companies BS is feeding us whoever they are and I look back and realize where we (I) fucdup.

You guys dont want to change things in OTR because you dont have the courage to do anything or dont have much time to go before you retire?
ok no big deal.
Keep reminiscing how good you were and how hard you worked and all the blablabla.

Some people are ready to listen at your local Tim Hortons.

But the rest of the trucking population have much longer to do in this business and if they have the balls to change things, let them go for it.

Union might not be the answer?
Ok maybe youre right, let them at least find out by themselves.

Now if I look at what OTR became, under the magnificent work ethics everybody keeps talking about,
It will be better than what WE did.
Can it get worse???

bikerboy

03-12-2010, 03:39 PM

liner

03-12-2010, 04:03 PM

Of course you dont have to complain, you are well treated.
Minimize it all you want, you are and have been previledged.

What ever you say Ratfink.I have it so good at CMF,much better than everyone else.:rofl2[1]:

Yup....every Monday morning I phone Dan on his private line and he asks me where I would like to go this week and then he gives me the load I want(with a backhaul already lined up of course) and makes sure I will be home on the weekend. I'm so "special" I don't need to deal with driver managers,dispatch,shop,customs dept,safety dept etc etc...I only deal with my "buddy" Dan.

If you can give me just one example of what you claim to know,I'd sure like to here it! And don't give me all the BS about wheelbase again.

buzzy

03-12-2010, 04:54 PM

Jeez Dave, you had a "short" week! Just what did you do with all your extra free time??

I don't think I can say I'm ever off duty. The damn blackberry keeps me on call 24/7.

It went off 3 times between 11pm last nite and 6am this morning when I walked in the office. I think I can leave here around 7 tonite.

But then, us managers are paid soooooooo well!! :lmao[1]::lmao[1]:

ratfink

03-12-2010, 05:37 PM

I bet there is going to be a HUGE shortage of OTR drivers in the next 20 years, many guys retiring, and not nearly as many young guys getting into it.

Eventually the carriers will be forced to change their ways, to attract new young blood.

Which might be the best thing yet to happen to trucking, once the supply of drivers slows, carriers will be offering anything they can think of to attract and keep drivers.

Nahhh I wouldn't be worried about it.
There will be a whole bunch of consultalts, ex O/O and managers to keep OTR just the way it is..

And like theyre signature say's,
They'll just find new places to hide the body's or kill the one who have enough guts to argue with old guys or plain argue with new recruits that if they dont like it to just leave and do something else for a living.

They will teach us great work ethics and OTR will be just fine.
Just like it's been all along.

liner

03-12-2010, 06:17 PM

Of course you dont have to complain, you are well treated.
Minimize it all you want, you are and have been previledged.

]

Well Ratfink....I'm still waiting for you to back up your accusations with some proof!!Just like I suspected...you can't prove squat!!

mc94xr7

03-12-2010, 10:15 PM

wow i been away for so long. i missed quite a bit here. i dont feel like readin all the stuff i missed. i am just so glad that the the teamsters union (local who gives a flying fock) had fought so hard to give me so much time off. i mean i get 3 days off after workin 4 weeks straight going from nj. to qc or if im lucky i might even go to Md. collecting my 400 mile minimum in a truck that spends more time in the shop than on the road.

see? the union benefits better from the company that treats there drivers like **** because they quit after a few weeks which means a new teamster member will be next in line to pay his $80 INITIATION FEE While working for peanuts as a team driver ($0.31/mile split between 2 drivers) intimidate run unsafe equipment. but the ones who have spent the most money to the union(union calls it seniority) and/ or speak french as there 2nd language (oh but i thought unions end discrimination and playing favourites:laugh1:) are looked after. they get the miles. they get the good equipment. they get the unions respect.
In conclusion, Sgt is a good company. but unions aren't designed to help you. they are designed to make money. in the contract, it clearly states that if you want to gain or remain employed, you must join the teamsters. if they are so great why dont they let people chose. why dont they fight for your business rather than steal it from you? union dues and e.i. dues kill 50 much need dollars for services i could do with out.

ralph

03-12-2010, 11:10 PM

[QUOTE=liner;30446]
Yup....every Monday morning I phone Dan on his private line and he asks me where I would like to go this week and then he gives me the load I want(with a backhaul already lined up of course) and makes sure I will be home on the weekend. I'm so "special" I don't need to deal with driver managers,dispatch,shop,customs dept,safety dept etc etc...I only deal with my "buddy" Dan.
QUOTE]

DAMN...knew I messed up when I left in the early 90's! To think I might have had that seceret elusive side door direct to Dan number too!

Some days I really hate myself and the misery I inflict upon myself!

liner

03-12-2010, 11:30 PM

Boy..I really feel special now.I just received the Press Release dated Nov.27 2009 from Teamsters Canada in the mail today.I see they are launching a campaign to organize the Challenger workers. Right on the ball getting their info out in a timely fashion.:rofl2[1]:
Three and a half months after they start the organizing campaign they decide to mail out their info. Looks like they must be getting desperate. Seems nobody is rushing to sign up like they thought would happen:rofl2[1]:
And this pathetic bunch is going to "fix" everything at CMF!!:rofl2[1]:
Hell...they can't even run an organizing campaign.:rofl2[1]:

liner

03-12-2010, 11:44 PM

I found this post on another site from a happy CMF driver.(Yes Ratfink they do exist)
Hope it's OK to post it here?

Have been running for Challenger (out of their Dorval yard) for 1 and a half years. Really like the company and runs. Get decent size trips mostly but I do stay out for usually 10 - 20 days. Montreal to Atlanta to Halifax so far this run. Last time out was Montreal to Arkansas to Toronto to Denver to Montreal to Maine to Quebec City to Chicago then home.

If I stay out shorter than 10 I can expect PA's, MD, OH maybe a KY or TN and the occasional NB/NS. Barely any NJ (3 in 18 months.. nice!!).

I like there system where I put in my due home day and am home for that day 80% and 20% the day after. I have never had anybody hassle me about time off (not that I take much) or my due home times. All in all I like there home time system.

Union is supposed to be organizing there but I have not talked to a single driver who is in favour of it. Highly doubt it will get in.

Safety minded company and the equipment is great. System for pre-plan for next load is nice as I do my calc for HOS compliance to and if I cant accept it for HOS they just give me something else. They do expect on-time's though so I have learned to trip plan well.

Have a deep desire to become an Owner op soon and the last time I asked Challenger was not hiring O/Ops. I hope they will be by the time I am ready as I would really like to stay there. Might be looking for a new company myself soon but I hope not.

Hope this helps you new folks.

Tom

mc94xr7

03-12-2010, 11:53 PM

notice the pretty teamsters trailer that guy has a pic of in his signature? the teamsters must me rich to afford such nice things? its amazing how they fight the "evil rich corporations" but wait, but, the teamsters are a rich corporation too? but- wait. i been lied to:(... no thats called Liberal hypocrisy.:crazy:

by the way. i tore off the challenger temaster propaganda sticker off the gas pump. its just, i care so much for the environment and dont want to see litter. that sticker on the gas pump is causing global warming:crazy:

mc94xr7

03-12-2010, 11:56 PM

bikerboy

03-13-2010, 03:39 AM

Get decent size trips mostly but I do stay out for usually 10 - 20 days.
If I stay out shorter than 10 I can expect PA's, MD, OH maybe a KY or TN and the occasional NB/NS. Barely any NJ (3 in 18 months.. nice!!).

I like there system where I put in my due home day and am home for that day 80% and 20% the day after. So to be happy at challenger, a driver must stay out 10-20 days
and 80% of the time gets home on the day required and 20% the day after??

Thats doesn't sound very impressive to someone thinking of getting into trucking

ralph

03-13-2010, 06:33 AM

ratfink

03-13-2010, 08:40 AM

So to be happy at challenger, a driver must stay out 10-20 days
and 80% of the time gets home on the day required and 20% the day after??

Thats doesn't sound very impressive to someone thinking of getting into trucking

Yeah thats one example of a guy who is ready to spend a lot of his free time waiting.
That doesnt tell about what a lot of drivers has to deal with.

Here a typical and a bit more realistic week.(realistic because I did that a lot last summer)

Driver leaves monday morning am from dorval with a load for Wlikes barre Pa delivering tuesday morning apointmnt is for 10 am (390 miles) then switch triler 30 miles away,
and head to Toronto area wed morning around 5 am to finnaly handbomb the load at your favorite grocery whse.(hoooo another 350 miles + the freebie hanbombing) then spend the day in Mississauga yard waiting to finaly pick a load back to Pa delivering thursday afternoon, (about 400 miles)
Humm lets see now, that makes about what? 1200miles when thursday morn comes + he worked for nothing hanbombing the load.

Oooo he's lucky, he gets a load picking up in Pa area and heads to Ont to deliver friday morn. Wow another 400 miles delivers friday
And wow he got lucky and rewarded for his patience,
he gets a load for Atlanta, (900 miles) .....
for next tuesday.

Now according to what some say, my writen english is hard to understand, but hopefully these guys can count.

that makes about 2400 miles and the driver left monday morning and he's in ga the next monday.

Hummm thats about an average of 340 miles a day.

And if he's fed up and refuse the load to atlanta and decide to got home that friday.
well since he refused a load, next monday he is required to spend a bit of time with the operation manager or the safety mangr
or a totally disconnected of OTR's life ex driver, ex O/O, consultant or call them whatever title he wants to give himmself.
who's on a power trip and want's to flex his muscle, he will tell him how hard he worked in his driving days doing whatever dispatch asked blablal, and tell him about the good ol days blablabla...)

He will also explain to him the clause that say's "forced dispatch" out of the famous contract he sign on when they hired him, oups sorry I should say put under contract.

I know, he read the now famous "contract" and if he doesnt like it he should get out.

Yeah what a life.

Franx

03-13-2010, 09:28 AM

...and a union will get you more miles??? if read CMF's package right you should be getting paid for hand bombing...no?? A little manual labour never hurt anyone.

liner

03-13-2010, 09:41 AM

Thats doesn't sound very impressive to someone thinking of getting into trucking

Its really quite simple...if that's not what you want to do then DON"T GET IN TO TRUCKING!!
Its not the only job out there!!

ratfink

03-13-2010, 10:43 AM

...and a union will get you more miles??? if read CMF's package right you should be getting paid for hand bombing...no?? A little manual labour never hurt anyone.

Did I mention anything about union????

I talk about what's wrong with OTR and why people are fed up and at least trying to do something about it.
I've stated a lot of times that union might not be the best answer, altho some cant understand what I mean because my english is soooo bad.

I've asked a lot of times if all of the expert pro truckers if they have any other or a better alternative and the only thing they come up with is to "talk with the boss" or suck it up because they did for soooo long or blame everybody for not reading the contract or simply get out of trucking.

Yeah great, look at where we are today, this BS attitude got us where we are today.

A kid that works for Mcgarbage flipping meat get treated better than us

how about this,
If you dont like the way drivers are handling the situation trying to do something about OTR's problem, If you dont agree with how they do things,
and if you've been in it long enough and near retirement, why dont YOU get out of it???

Franx

03-13-2010, 11:00 AM

Did I mention anything about union????

This topic is in the "Union House" isn't it??

ratfink

03-13-2010, 11:16 AM

Is that what it is?????

Crap I've debated this all along for nothing.

liner

03-13-2010, 01:32 PM

I've asked a lot of times if all of the expert pro truckers if they have any other or a better alternative and the only thing they come up with is to "talk with the boss" or suck it up because they did for soooo long or blame everybody for not reading the contract or simply get out of trucking.

You keep repeating the same old problems...we get it already!OTR is not for everyone!You admit maybe union isn't the way to go.What have YOU done to change anything?What do YOU suggest should be done to "fix" things.We hear nothing but complaining coming from you,and that sure won't change anything!

So I'll ask one more time.........WHAT HAVE YOU DONE...and WHAT IDEAS DO YOU HAVE???

bikerboy

03-13-2010, 03:56 PM

Its really quite simple...if that's not what you want to do then DON"T GET IN TO TRUCKING!!
Its not the only job out there!!

That solution works for now, but do you honestly see as many young guys coming into trucking these days, as there was back when you started?

If more and more guys take that attitude, and don't like trucking, eventually how many drivers will be left?

I am just saying, OTR trucking, the way it is right now, does not work for many young drivers who might otherwise do it, if the conditions and wasted time or pay for working over weekends was worth it.
Eventually this could be a huge problem.

Does anyone agree? is their less young drivers these days, compared to 20-30 years ago? and if so, why is that?

Mercenary

03-13-2010, 04:51 PM

Then again what would I know about trucking --- after all I am not a Union member; just some guy who has been in the industry for over 30 years and has made a living off it.

Dave

The main problem Dave is that you can talk, mail, or call whom ever you like. Nothing will get done until something drastic happens to get their attention.

CMF going union would be 'something drastic'. It might just cause the other companies to sit up and take notice.

You all have to face facts and know that OTR trucking is really the bottom rung of the trucking industry pay scale wise and probably job satisfaction wise. There are so many more better paying trucking jobs out there that it doesn't surprise me that young guys aren't getting into the field like they used to. Now I know these jobs really aren't for everyone but then again, neither is OTR.

ratfink

03-14-2010, 01:50 AM

You keep repeating the same old problems...we get it already!OTR is not for everyone!You admit maybe union isn't the way to go.What have YOU done to change anything?What do YOU suggest should be done to "fix" things.We hear nothing but complaining coming from you,and that sure won't change anything!

So I'll ask one more time.........WHAT HAVE YOU DONE...and WHAT IDEAS DO YOU HAVE???

Ask and you will receive, Damn right I'll keep repeating the same things over and over, and

NO you dont get it.

What am I doing, the same as you buddy, difference is that I keep telling new drivers NOT to do the same mistake I or should I say WE did after deregulation.
Work our rear end off just because we were told so.
work for nothing, I read right here that it's not that bad to do a little phisical work once in a while.
Bull crapola!
Why should I handbomb a load for free just because the carrier doesnt have the balls to charge the customer?
Why should I sit in a customer's yard for hours for free just because again nobody want to pay.
Why should I let a carrier make me sit in a garage for days because HIS truck or HIS trailer broke down???
I could go on and on and on. (and I will)

Just because I keep pointing out where and what are the problems, guys like YOU and your friends are calling us whiners because you dont agree, because you dont want to change your ways.

Like Mercenary was writing it will take something drastic to shake thing in this industry.
Companies are scared of unions, is this what it took to get theyre attention?
more than 12000 people read this thread allready, you think nobody cares?

You say OTR is not for everybody? youre right, carpentry, plumbing or even cooking either.
Some people try it and get out if they dont like it. I't like that in every profession.

What am I doing? incouraging new drivers to take a stand and fight back and ask, insist, demand to be
PAID FOR THE PROFESSIONAL WORK THEY PERFORM! and not act like a cheap whore because Mr boss is giving them a new truck or a nice load or even just take a bit of his precious time to make believe he actually listening to them!

I cant do it alone , when guys like me complain about the BS, we are labeled as whiners.
if I repeat it enough maybe just maybe someone will start to look at how they are paid and ASK for a better treatment.

you think my ranting will wake up some drivers??? I hope so. It's better than to tell them to suck it up, or to just get out of it.
Theres allready several hundred of thousands drivers who left this industry, you mean to tell me that they all chose the wrong profession???
Dont you think for a minute tht maybe it's not all the drivers fault?

Call me what you want.I dont care. I'll keep whining kicking whatever you call it, I call it respecting MY trade and MY profession.

I read once a speach a boss gave to GM. (Hummm, I cant remember who it was...)
He told them, if you want your carriers to perform you need to have financialy healthy carriers.

Well it's time to tell or bosses that if they want to have the best drivers, if they want us to be so qualified, they need to stop abusing and start paying them.
It's ok for them to ask for more money but if a driver ask ...he's a whiner

ratfink

03-14-2010, 03:21 AM

Then again what would I know about trucking --- after all I am not a Union member; just some guy who has been in the industry for over 30 years and has made a living off it.

Dave

Hummm, my dad always told me,

The only thing worse than not having enough experience...
is believing you have too much of it!

liner

03-14-2010, 12:17 PM

You say OTR is not for everybody? youre right, carpentry, plumbing or even cooking either.
Some people try it and get out if they dont like it. I't like that in every profession.

Your right...they get out if it's not for them.They don't stay at it for years and constantly complain about things,they choose something that suits them better.

You choose to stay in this profession for whatever reasons you may have,but nobody is dragging anyone kicking and screaming into OTR trucking.Despite all the negatives in OTR some guys still seem to want to make it a career choice.If and when the day comes and freight is backing up on the docks,store shelves are empty etc etc, because no one wants to drive a truck anymore, then maybe things will change.Until then trucking company's are in the drivers seat and we can either take what they have to offer or leave it because all the complaining in the world is not going to change things!
That my friend is not what you want to hear,but sadly it's reality.

mc94xr7

03-14-2010, 01:15 PM

Yeah thats one example of a guy who is ready to spend a lot of his free time waiting.
That doesnt tell about what a lot of drivers has to deal with.

Here a typical and a bit more realistic week.(realistic because I did that a lot last summer)

Driver leaves monday morning am from dorval with a load for Wlikes barre Pa delivering tuesday morning apointmnt is for 10 am (390 miles) then switch triler 30 miles away,
and head to Toronto area wed morning around 5 am to finnaly handbomb the load at your favorite grocery whse.(hoooo another 350 miles + the freebie hanbombing) then spend the day in Mississauga yard waiting to finaly pick a load back to Pa delivering thursday afternoon, (about 400 miles)
Humm lets see now, that makes about what? 1200miles when thursday morn comes + he worked for nothing hanbombing the load.

Oooo he's lucky, he gets a load picking up in Pa area and heads to Ont to deliver friday morn. Wow another 400 miles delivers friday
And wow he got lucky and rewarded for his patience,
he gets a load for Atlanta, (900 miles) .....
for next tuesday.

Now according to what some say, my writen english is hard to understand, but hopefully these guys can count.

that makes about 2400 miles and the driver left monday morning and he's in ga the next monday.

Hummm thats about an average of 340 miles a day.

And if he's fed up and refuse the load to atlanta and decide to got home that friday.
well since he refused a load, next monday he is required to spend a bit of time with the operation manager or the safety mangr
or a totally disconnected of OTR's life ex driver, ex O/O, consultant or call them whatever title he wants to give himmself.
who's on a power trip and want's to flex his muscle, he will tell him how hard he worked in his driving days doing whatever dispatch asked blablal, and tell him about the good ol days blablabla...)

He will also explain to him the clause that say's "forced dispatch" out of the famous contract he sign on when they hired him, oups sorry I should say put under contract.

I know, he read the now famous "contract" and if he doesnt like it he should get out.

Yeah what a life.
well no different in a union environment except we gotta pay job-protection fees to the mafia owned jimmy hoffa teamsters

ratfink

03-14-2010, 03:00 PM

well no different in a union environment except we gotta pay job-protection fees to the mafia owned jimmy hoffa teamsters

yeah right, ar'nt you the one who said you were ready to take a pay cut to have an edge over the others???

Rate cutting IS one of the major problem in this industry.

Salary's are low because of guys like you who are ready to work for nothing just to get as you said an edge...
At least with an union, guys like you cant cut salary down.
maybe in your case the union is protecting guys against you and not the other way around.

When I talk about guys acting as cheap ****** just because they get a new truck, a good run etc, ... some others are doing just like you and cut theyre salary to get an edge.

You dont have any lessons to give my friend.

ralph

03-14-2010, 03:13 PM

yeah right, ar'nt you the one who said you were ready to take a pay cut to have an edge over the others???

Rate cutting IS one of the major problem in this industry.

Salary's are low because of guys like you who are ready to work for nothing just to get as you said an edge...
At least with an union, guys like you cant cut salary down.
maybe in your case the union is protecting guys against you and not the other way around.

When I talk about guys acting as cheap ****** just because they get a new truck, a good run etc, ... some others are doing just like you and cut theyre salary to get an edge.

You dont have any lessons to give my friend.

Sorry Ratfink, but you are incorrect. I know of Unionized crane operators are cutting each other's testicles out right now! Their contract says that O/T will be paid if the operator starts before 7am, works past 4pm or works more than 7 1/2 hours per day. They are guaranteed a days pay (7 1/2 hours) if they show up. Many operators will start early and not clock in for O/T, many will work past 4pm and not want O/T and many will work out of town and not ask for the full $105 sustinence they are allowed.

Just because you are unionized doesn't mean that your "brothers" won't try and gut you when they need work or a favor.

mc94xr7

03-14-2010, 03:49 PM

Yes supply and demand. or competition. nothing wrong with competing. its what makes capitalism so great. a socialist union member is too busy whining when things "aren't fair" while the capitalist is trying to find a way around a problem, a socialist runs to mommy to make things better.

in conclusion, life's not fair

the end

ratfink

03-14-2010, 06:30 PM

What a shocker.
This afternoon, couples of drivers are waiting to get loaded.
5 or 6 CMF and one of them is a long time Cambridge driver. about the same senority as you liner.
Of course the union subject came up. (he brought it up)
He asked who sign theyre cards.
I told myself, here we go again, another liner thats gonna tell us the way we should think and act.

BUT NOOOOOO!!!!

The guy start to tell us not to do like him and rely on the company to respect his senority.
His dedicated run was cancelled a year ago and he's pisssssed that now he can hardly get to work.
He started to tell us about how much money he lost this year waiting for HIS turn to go to work. and when HIS turn came, all what was left was junk loads.

Monday, no work for "mr. 20+years in the company" from Cambridge.

I though he was BS-ing us but NOOOOO again
He showed us his receip and had a bunch of card and documentation with him that he distributed to us.
And to addd to the shocker he told us there was a whole bunch of them signing up, from cambridge....

Better watch your friends liner, they are turning theyre back on you.

Oh and one more, liner, you told us that senority was respcted for dedicated runs right???

Since the hollidays, a bunch of new dedicated were made up.
Toronto area to Maritimes and Québec.
Pretty good runs.
A bunch of drivers were "awarded" those runs.
Nothing was posted, just a bunch of chosen lucky one got those runs.

Your friend Mr 20 years in the company didnt apreciate not beeing one of the chosen ones and this is why he signed his card.

ratfink

03-14-2010, 06:41 PM

Youre right Ralph, union cant prevent the cutting, come to think of it, I saw that too somewhere else.
But got to agree with me that if the rates are so low in this industry, guys who are ready to work for next to nothing are a good part responsible for it.

this guy call's it competing. he's not a company he's an employe.

I can understand productivity and have no problem with it.
But to cut his salary when we are strugling to not work for nothing and make a decent living.

I'm sorry but the only name that comes to my mind is..... cheap whore.

And I might add that's what the companies think of them too, they use and abuse them, then throw them away.

liner

03-14-2010, 10:12 PM