shifting help?

[justanouthernewbie]

ok, this might seem mundane or stupid at this point but here goes :(

ive been driving for only a couple of weeks and still having problems shifting on the hills. i drive a 13 speed and not too sure on the splitting. i shift normally from 1 through 8 then split 8 into 13. this works fine on flat terrain but once im into the hills of tennessee and kentucky im finding that im screwed :( i bog down then downshift from 8 to 7 but it seems i can never recover enough speed to get moving uphill more then 30 miles an hour. very frustrating! if anyone can tell me step by step how to get through the gears i would apprecitate it( and so would my truck )

last week i took 219 down through penn. and it was to say the least, a disater and very long night lol

[ralph]

No dumb/bad questions here, just those not asked.

You're trying to use ALL the gears and those knobs in PA on 219 won't allow it if you are heavy. Just move the stick, don't worry about the splitter unless you have to go to the bottom side. Let the rpm drop to 1,100 and move the stick. You'll need more rpm as you are moving 2 gears but it will work for you.

[justanouthernewbie]

not sure im following you, the way im shifting is when i start at the bottom of the mountain, im in 8 high, which i believe is 13, so before i start the climb i pull the splitter button back, so now im in 8. as i start to climb i lose speed and rpm so i down shift to 7 th at about 12-1300 rpm. that never helps and i just keep bogging down and usually luck to get to the top at about 30 miles an hour while every one else is pulling nicely and whizzing by. i just dont know what im doing wrong and only learned without the splitter.
as long as i keep the rpm at or above 1500, i pull all right. but i just cant seem to do it. getting very frustrated here.

ps. are you saying i should be dropping more then one gear at a time, like from 8 to 6 ?

[liner]

If your heavy then you should be dropping more than one gear at a time on the steeper hills because your road speed is going to drop much faster than you will be able to downshift,if your only dropping one at a time.Like Ralph said just forget about the splitter and move the stick only.Before long it will be a breeze.

[Mr Bee]

What Ralph is saying, don't worry about the splitter, just move the stick. In the highest gear, some people call it 13th. I call it 8th over. Slide the splitter back and you are in 8th direct. Off course, that's old school thinking. Now days they refer to it as high and low.

If you are pulling a steep hill, just leave the splitter alone and just move the stick. I generally shift between 13 and 1400, so, you are going from 8th high position to 7th high, then to 6th is necessary. All without moving the splitter. Some people like to use the splitter on every shift. That's too much work.

[Pinner]

I'm thinking you are not shifting soon enough, don't let your revs get to low.

If your shifting slow and losing road speed because off the hill you need to start your down shift at a much higher rpm.

Keep your revs up it won't hurt anything.

[justanouthernewbie]

i think that is a big part of my problem, that im too slow at shifting down, as i still double clutch. i am usually pulling heavy imo. ( 40,000) i start the mountain at 8 if im doing a lot of up and down, ( i leave the spitter alone at this point and just do up to 8) . now in 8 im up round 15-1600 , when i start to bog a little (round 1300) i will downshift to 7. this doesnt seem to work and only bogs me down more and by then im **** outa luck to get to the top in one piece. maybe im shifting too slow, maybe too late, maybe too soon. i dont know. all i know is its getting really frustrating. maybe its the truck and not me ( i can hope ? lol ) but also when im heavy, even from a stop it seems sometimes it takes forever to get up to speed without bogging down, and i start from 1 through 8 and shift up at 1500 or above. but that i can live with, its getting up the mountains thats killing me. love the job so far (even the backing is comming slowly around) but getting too stressed out and fear for my sanity. going to boston next week and therefore more mountains.

[ralph]

Thanks Liner and Mr. Bee! Sometimes I have trouble articulating. Pinner, you also are correct but in today's world you are supposed to lug down to the 1,000 rpm mark. I am with you and would sooner have higher rpm's than worry about having to make another shift nearing the top of the hill.

[SEBOAM]

Being new is a pain But I agree with Pinner. When you are going up a steep grade you will have to shift quicker. Your road speed is not progressing due to the hill so if you have a little more rpm before you shift then you will have a little more after the shift. As for the splitter, if you need a little more , then just pull the little button back and you will have a half a gear rpm gain in the low/direct position. You will come to love the splitter.I now have a 9 speed and it is a pain in the you know what.

[justanouthernewbie]

as far as the splitter goes, if i am in 7 and i want to split to 7 high, i let off the fuel, push the spitter button forward and give fuel again. this puts me into 7 high. now what im not sure of is how to get to 8 low from this point. last time i tried i got a big clunk(arggh) also when i want to get from 8 high down to just 8, all i do is let off the fuel , pull the splitter button back, then give a shot of fuel again. this puts me in 8 low, as i call it. my problem is going from say 7 high, to 8 low. which i assume is the correct sequence.

[Pinner]

Just leave the splitter alone right now...

Do not listen to other drivers about lugging their engines down, I hear guys talk about gearing and torque curves and how they cruise at 65 mph in the sweet spot blah blah blah It's all BS, don't listen, when you get into the grove, do as you please.

You are hauling pretty light loads so you are truly having some issues.

Downshifts while slowing down can be made at a lower rpm but while your truck is under load climbing a hill, keep the revs up.

I pull Super's in the hills, big nasty hills/coulees and off highway bush roads that would curl most driver's toe nails, so I know something about shifting on hills... Whether or not I can articulate it ?

When climbing a hill, from the moment you lift of the power until your in a new gear and back on the power the truck is losing "ROADSPEED".

The STEEPER the hill, the HEAVIER the load the QUICKER you will LOSE ROADSPEED. The more ROADSPEED you lose, the LOWER, the revs will be when you complete the shift. Understand that.

So if your revs go down 300 rpm for a FULL gear change (up shifting)(difference in gear ratio) and the time it takes to shift (losing ROADSPEED) we'll say 400 rpm total for a up shift. 300 for the gear plus 100 for the time out of gear = 400 rpms. (This is on relatively flat ground)

Now if your climbing a steep hill, your ROADSPEED will drop much much more so now your time out of gear will cost you 200 rpms,(because your losing ROADSPEED faster) so if you start a downshift at 1100 rpm you need to get your revs up 300 rpms for the gear but you've lost 200 rpms worth of ROADSPEED right? So really you only need 100 rpm more for that lower gear because of the ROADSPEED you lost making the shift...

So now you got your lower gear, at 1200 rpms... Not enough rpms for the engine to recover the lost momentum.

So what can we do about that ? Start your shift at a higher rpm so the revs will still be high enough to make power after the shift. I think what's happening to you is your too far behind and out of the power range by the time you get your gear, then you try another downshift and your already too late for that one etc.

Trying to shift faster will probably result in blowing shifts causing more problems, your shifting will improve with experience, don't worry about that.

If you start your downshift at 1500 rpm, you need 300 rpm for the gear, but you will lose 200 rpms of ROADSPEED so you should get your gear at 1600 rpms, your engine will pick the load up just fine at that rpm.


Try downshifting at 1500, and stay away from the splitter for now.

[justanouthernewbie]

ok, so what you re saying is maybe right near the start of my climb when im in 8th and at about 1500 rpm, and cruising at 60-65, i should already be thinking about dropping to 7 ? some climbs are 3-4 miles. i would think that dropping to 7 from 8 at that time as opposed to waiting a few minutes into my climb and a roadspeed of about 50, the rpm would jump to around 2200 and my engine would scream at me. and even then the best i would do for speed would be 45 to 50. my tach redlines at around 23 i think so wouldnt this be way too high?

[Maxx]

Maybe this will help with your shifting speed problem.

Try and practice shifting up and down without using the clutch. Try practicing on the flat, then try on some hills. Be careful to match the revs by using the tach until you get used to it. Use a light touch on the shift lever, feel it clicking, raise or lower the revs and slide it in. With practice you will start to use your ears instead of the tach and you will shift smoothly and easily.

You have to match revs anyways and using the clutch IMHO is redundant. I know others do use the clutch and that's perfectly OK.

Like all the others say, don't use the splitter when down shifting. If you are heavy and approaching a steep hill consider dropping 2 gear positions. If you drop down to many gear positions you can alway step up one using the splitter but be careful though until you know your truck and the road. I prefer to climb in a gear that might be one lower than some drivers would choose. The engine is not stressed, the temperature in the exhaust manifold is reasonable and I hold the revs. Getting to the top isn't a race, there is no prize for first.

When you say you're hearing a clunk when using the splitter and going from upper 7 to under 8, try preselecting the split button then shift the lever. Never move the split button when the transmission is in neutral. The transmission will look after the change in the split when you drop revs or use the clutch.

HERE (http://www.roadranger.com/Roadranger/productssolutions/transmissions/low-inertiasuper18/index.htm) is a link to a downloadable video on shifting a 13 or 18 speed.

Good luck and remember practice makes perfect. :)

[Pinner]

Your transmission isn't 700 rpm per gear...

If your doing 60-65 @ 1500 and wait till the revs are at ______? before you downshift at 50, what rpm does your engine get to after the shift?

I'll bet way too low for your engine vs. load/hill... You see, your turbo needs more rpms to get spooled up after a shift.

You can't hurt a modern engine by revving at 2300 or whatever the rev governor is set at, you could put a brick on it and it wouldn't hurt it...

In fact it's harder on an engine to be lugged down, Bulldozers, excavators, generators running basically the same engines run at governor all day...

Now over revving under compression like jaking down a hill and revving over 2300 will, but that's a different thing.

[Pinner]

Maxx, Lets get this guy comfortable shifting full gears before we confuse things any further with floating gears and splitting...

[Maxx]

What's confusing you son?

[justanouthernewbie]

thanx, this weeks trip takes me through the utica ny corridor down to 84 and over to the boston area, so i will have a chance to try a few things and get others worked out hopefully.
basically you are saying to start the climbs in 7 and a high rpm (round 1700-2000 ?)and that should get me over the top for the most part?

[Pinner]

Maybe your not "cutout" for trucking...

[trucker101]

Just leave the splitter alone right now...

Do not listen to other drivers about lugging their engines down, I hear guys talk about gearing and torque curves and how they cruise at 65 mph in the sweet spot blah blah blah It's all BS, don't listen, when you get into the grove, do as you please.

You are hauling pretty light loads so you are truly having some issues.

Downshifts while slowing down can be made at a lower rpm but while your truck is under load climbing a hill, keep the revs up.

I pull Super's in the hills, big nasty hills/coulees and off highway bush roads that would curl most driver's toe nails, so I know something about shifting on hills... Whether or not I can articulate it ?

When climbing a hill, from the moment you lift of the power until your in a new gear and back on the power the truck is losing "ROADSPEED".

The STEEPER the hill, the HEAVIER the load the QUICKER you will LOSE ROADSPEED. The more ROADSPEED you lose, the LOWER, the revs will be when you complete the shift. Understand that.

So if your revs go down 300 rpm for a FULL gear change (up shifting)(difference in gear ratio) and the time it takes to shift (losing ROADSPEED) we'll say 400 rpm total for a up shift. 300 for the gear plus 100 for the time out of gear = 400 rpms. (This is on relatively flat ground)

Now if your climbing a steep hill, your ROADSPEED will drop much much more so now your time out of gear will cost you 200 rpms,(because your losing ROADSPEED faster) so if you start a downshift at 1100 rpm you need to get your revs up 300 rpms for the gear but you've lost 200 rpms worth of ROADSPEED right? So really you only need 100 rpm more for that lower gear because of the ROADSPEED you lost making the shift...

So now you got your lower gear, at 1200 rpms... Not enough rpms for the engine to recover the lost momentum.

So what can we do about that ? Start your shift at a higher rpm so the revs will still be high enough to make power after the shift. I think what's happening to you is your too far behind and out of the power range by the time you get your gear, then you try another downshift and your already too late for that one etc.

Trying to shift faster will probably result in blowing shifts causing more problems, your shifting will improve with experience, don't worry about that.

If you start your downshift at 1500 rpm, you need 300 rpm for the gear, but you will lose 200 rpms of ROADSPEED so you should get your gear at 1600 rpms, your engine will pick the load up just fine at that rpm.


Try downshifting at 1500, and stay away from the splitter for now.Listen work with all that Pinner said. Plus most trannys have a 400rpm difference up & down shift with a FULL STICK move IE: not moving the splitter. And a 200 rpm difference using ONLY the splitter. And i have been on the same type of roads as Pinner :23_28_125[1]:

[hotshoe36]

Maybe your not "cutout" for trucking...
Not sure what that means...
Good advice in your other posts, though.

New Guy, my engine is a 500hp Series 60. It makes 500 hp at 2100rpm, 400 hp at 1500 rpm and 300 hp at 1000 rpm. These numbers are approximate, but typical of current power, more or less. What they mean - if you put them together with all pinner's information, is that when you want power, use higher engine speeds. Lower engine speeds are for fuel economy, as when running on flat ground with a light load. My personal no-brainer shift speed on a hill is down at 1300-1400, up at 1700-1800. My transmission's upper gears are the same as yours.

You have enough information for the moment, I think. Get that working and then, as the next lesson, learn to make all the shifts as smooth as you can. An old guy taught me once, many generations ago, to learn to shift as if your passenger was a racehorse. Racehorses, he said, are strong and fast. To balance that, though, they are abysmally stupid and they break easily. This is to say that they panic for very little reason, and when they do, they thrash around and splinter their legs. Each of those legs, he said, is worth a million dollars (this was back when a million dollars was a lot of money) so you didn't want them breaking. How you keep this from happening, is you give 'em a lot smoother ride than a head of state would get: Make your shifts so smooth you can't feel or hear them. This can only be done s l o w l y, even on a hill. Get used to just touching the clutch at either side of the shift. Eventually you won't need it at all.

Now, I don't know about these other guys, but getting it perfect every time does not happen. Eventually, if you keep your standards high, you will get almost all of 'em perfect almost every time. When I start screwing them up is when I know I'm getting tired.

Generally, in hilly country, I shift down full gears and up half-gears (split-shifts). Hope some of this helps.

[SEBOAM]

Are you running a tandem trailer in the USA? If so , a 500 hp Detroit should pull along great. I will never agree with running against the governer. I ran everywhere in the States and Canada with a 330hp M11 and a 10 speed and never needed those kind of rpms. I have a truck I use once and awhile pulling trains with the same set up you have. At 100kph it runs about 1450 on the tach. At 2000+ rpm , I'm sure it would sound like it is going to come apart.
This is how I do it. As you start to climb a hill, I let it drop back to 1300 then split the top gear . This gives you a feel for the hill and how you are doing on it. After that I take full gears(moving the stick only) to the top still shifting at 1300 to 1350. I am in no big rush to get over the top because I know what goes up must go down so I let the down hill help build up speed. As you get more experence with a 13 or 18 you will do better with them.Be patient.

[asphaltcowboy57]

Going from 7 high to 8 low--Move splitter to low position then shift stick double clutching into 8 and give her fuel-- Always move splitter just before you you move the stick-- If you're just slitting gears ( not moving the stick) double clutching is not necessary. Just come off the fuel and you will feel the shift and then back on the fuel. Do this for both up and down shifting when just splitting and not moving the gear shift

[Drifter]

Ok Newbie, first off relax take a deep breath.....Since you do double clutch try this

In what you call 8 lo-to down to 7hi depress clutch, as you move stick into neutral move button to hi release clutch in neutral. depress clutch put stick in 7 gear position and release clutch.

Doing the above on flat land as your down shifting, a few times and you will have it.


My advice tho is work on floating your gears (no clutch use ) Good Luck

[Pinner]

Seaboam & cowboy...

You guys just can't stop yourselves from tossing some more information at this driver that is already confused...?


At 2000+ rpm , I'm sure it would sound like it is going to come apart.


You should get that looked at.

[Pinner]

In what you call 8 lo-to down to 7hi depress clutch, as you move stick into neutral move button to hi release clutch in neutral. depress clutch put stick in 7 gear position and release clutch.


This is WRONG ! And then you continue on to say he should be floating gears... Giving a new driver completely wrong instructions... Nice

Unbelievable... Give the driver a chance to master the basics first.

[Manitoba Trucker]

Not sure if I still qualify as a NEWB ... but I still feel like one. I went through the same struggles as you with shifting and have learnt a lot "on the fly". My first OTR trip was through Pennsylvania (luckily with a trainer), and it gave me the basics, but most of what I do now, I have learnt through trial by fire.

When I approach a large hill, BEFORE I lose any speed on the hill, I shift from 8H to 8L to give me the RPM I need to continue. As I climb the hill, I watch my RPM and speed closely and as soon as I begin to see significant drops, I drop either 1/2 a gear or a whole gear. I NEVER use the clutch, in fact I was trained to avoid clutch use, so do all my shifts using the tach and engine speed. I have dropped all the way to 5L on some hills, and find that it works for me. I keep my engine RPM in the 1300 to 1500 range at all times when climbing, and although I sometimes end up climbing at 30MPH or less, I always make it to the top.

Just hang in there...keep your mind in the game and it will all begin to come easy.

[Pinner]

Just come off the fuel and you will feel the shift and then back on the fuel. Do this for both up and down shifting when just splitting and not moving the gear shift

Is that right, every truck I've ever driven needed a little poke of fuel to get the revs up for a down split... More good advice from the peanut gallery. eye roll

[Pinner]

I think the reason new driver's should be using the clutch as that it is easier to break torque with the clutch than with the throttle, plain and simple.

That and the fact that you won't pass your driving exam without the clutch, the transmission manufacturers insist you use the clutch and every driving school teaches this way...

If you guys that don't think you need a clutch ever get into some heavy hauling off highway you'll find you need to use the clutch to break the transmission out of gear when things get "stupid" steep...

Everybody learns to float gears and when they need to tap the clutch but don't push a new driver, it doesn't help.

[justanouthernewbie]

ok, off again to the east coast now. thanx for all the info, its a lot to take in. i ll work on a few things this week and update next weekend on how things are working out.
and yes pinner, i do think im cut out for this job, i just need to get some work in on the shifting. i love the job so far and just believe i need that experience factor. everyone starts somewhere and some just take longer to get there then others. thanx for all the great info.

[Pipeman]

I think the reason new driver's should be using the clutch as that it is easier to break torque with the clutch than with the throttle, plain and simple.

That and the fact that you won't pass your driving exam without the clutch, the transmission manufacturers insist you use the clutch and every driving school teaches this way...

If you guys that don't think you need a clutch ever get into some heavy hauling off highway you'll find you need to use the clutch to break the transmission out of gear when things get "stupid" steep...

Everybody learns to float gears and when they need to tap the clutch but don't push a new driver, it doesn't help.Remember, a lot of drivers have never pulled heavy loads on or off highway.

Yes, I float thru the gears but when you get down on speed and heavy climb etc., you better use the clutch or you'll come to a dead stop in no time.

I recall south of Longview on the Compressor Hill (TransCanada Pipeline Station), grossing out at 188,500 lbs. and have to get down into 3 or 4 th gear with an 18 speed, yup, USE THE CLUTCH and nothing or anyone is capable of shifting by floating.

[hotshoe36]

Gawd! Let's go another couple, three pages of conflicting bullsh*t, and then see if the guy gets smart and drops off the board to figure it out himself.

Pinner has it. Good advice. Ignore anything he thinks is nonsense to a new guy.


Are you running a tandem trailer in the USA?

Who, me? No.

[Pinner]

I pulled a hill a couple of summers ago, 5th to 3rd to 1st in about the time it took to type that. The truck behind me spun out, :) this was hard pack dry dirt... He had to move about 8 ton forward to lift it... He had the 550 I had the 565 both w/4.10

[hotshoe36]

Lotsa those on Vancouver Island. You want the dirt a little damp, not wet and not dry. Can't give it all the power after dropping past around 3rd, or you break traction. Then you break the train up, or break out two sets of triples!

[JReid]

Call my cell 705-794-1948(Jim) and we'll meet some where and you can show me how your doing it the next time your back in Ont.Maybe it's the truck too. I know I had some company truck's that wouldn't pull a hill even empty.Anyway if you want to you can call.But I'm sure you'll get it with practice.

[Mercenary]

I think the reason new driver's should be using the clutch as that it is easier to break torque with the clutch than with the throttle, plain and simple.

That and the fact that you won't pass your driving exam without the clutch, the transmission manufacturers insist you use the clutch and every driving school teaches this way...

If you guys that don't think you need a clutch ever get into some heavy hauling off highway you'll find you need to use the clutch to break the transmission out of gear when things get "stupid" steep...

Everybody learns to float gears and when they need to tap the clutch but don't push a new driver, it doesn't help.

I never learned to double clutch at school at all and not once on the test was I asked to double clutch. I agree that you still need the clutch off highway on the hills for sure....

Good ol BC :)

[Pipeman]

If you want to practice floating the gears. Do it on flat ground to get the feel. Don't try to learn on steep grades. It takes a bit of time but you'll get it.

[Manitoba Trucker]

That and the fact that you won't pass your driving exam without the clutch, the transmission manufacturers insist you use the clutch and every driving school teaches this way...



I took my training and test in Manitoba in Sept and Oct 2009 and we were NOT taught to use the clutch, and when tested, we did NOT use the clutch at all! The school that trained me told us that we should never use the clutch and at one point my instructor told me if I used it once more he was gonna nail my foot to the floor! :) I have trained myself to use it when necessary, but for most of my shifts, I never have to touch it. The rules could be different in other provinces, but in Manitoba clutching is not required on the test. My school did attempt to teach me double clutching AFTER I had passed my test, but I couldn't grasp the concept at that time, now that I have some experience, I can do that also.

[Pinner]

The school that trained me told us that we should never use the clutch and at one point my instructor told me if I used it once more he was gonna nail my foot to the floor!

Well I guess that settles it, the school that taught you must be right.

I guess those fools at Eaton/Fuller don't know anything...

[Manitoba Trucker]

Well I guess that settles it, the school that taught you must be right.

I guess those fools at Eaton/Fuller don't know anything...

LOL I am NOT saying that ... YOU stated that ALL schools teach you to use clutch and that you need to use the clutch to pass your test. I was just stating what MY experience was. I am sure that the transmission manufacturers know what is best for their transmissions.

[Pinner]

Your right I did use the words "every driving school"

I just don't see how it helps the original poster, too many drivers coming on the thread saying to shift without the clutch...

[SEBOAM]

Seaboam & cowboy...

You guys just can't stop yourselves from tossing some more information at this driver that is already confused...?



You should get that looked at.
Sorry, he asked for advice and I gave him a little.I never run that high of rpms.Never had the need.

[colleen]

i am really paying attention to all your answers my problem is i have driven for pronorth last summer it was the greatest experience and i was right from school unfortunatly they put me in an automatic which now i dont think was a good idea cause now i need to get my shifting back and im a little nervous..but confident especially now with this site so anyhow good luck to you and maybe see you out there..:23_11_60:

[ralph]

Colleen, that's why new drivers (car and truck) shouldn't learn to drive or be assigned an automatic/autoshift transmission. It's good for the carrier though as when they throw a new driver in an auto shift he/she is stuck with that style because they lack the experience with a manual transmission. The carrier wins again.

[Drifter]

Sorry Pinner, Didn`t realise our answers and experience weren`t up to your standards so you go rite ahead as the resident pro. Eventually you will be posting to yourself. Good Day Master trainer.

[Pinner]

Sorry Pinner, Didn`t realise our answers and experience weren`t up to your standards

You explained to a new driver the "wrong" way to shift, and then went on to say they should be floating gears rather than double clutching.

[justanouthernewbie]

got back today from my trip and have been reading the posts made while i was gone. you guys argue too much over the same subject :) i took alot of the advice given and tried to sort it out. i will say that i believe i made some headway on the shifting, although i ll have to admit that i have a very light load this time around. basicly i forgot about the splitter (aside from 8 split to 13 on some flat ground just to get a quieter ride at the lower rpm while cruising at 65) . i made my shifts going up hill at a higher rpm to make up for my slow shifting and that seemed to help out. i think that the only way to get in quicker shifts for now is to not double clutch, however for now i feel comfortable using the clutch so thats the way it ll be till i get more experience. i feel i made a lot of progress in catching a lower gear when slowing down ( i used to try to downshift through every gear to get to the one i needed in the end , usually 3 or 4 , because i was having trouble matching the gear i needed to the rpm and road speed i was at. however i can pretty much stay in 8 and slow right down and get right to 3 or 4 without too much trouble.
one thing i noticed but didnt want to press the issue right now with is when experimenting not using the clutch is that in the lower gears like from 2 to 3 and 3 to 4 i dont have much problem, however when in 6 or 7 and wanting to shift up without the clutch, i put pressure on the shifter to pull out of gear, but the shifter doesnt want to pop out of gear. not sure that its that im going too fast or wrong rpms, because i let the truck slow while i was putting pressure on the shifter to see where it would come out of gear but it just didnt want to so i didnt force the issue. thanx for all the replies.

[Pinner]

i put pressure on the shifter to pull out of gear, but the shifter doesnt want to pop out of gear. not sure that its that im going too fast or wrong rpms, because i let the truck slow while i was putting pressure on the shifter to see where it would come out of gear but it just didnt want to so i didnt force the issue. thanx for all the replies.

Well that's good to hear, practice, practice.

The reason the shifter is not coming out of gear is that still is loaded with torque, if you just tap the clutch it will just fall right out of gear. Just give the clutch a quick little push.

Shifting without the clutch is called "floating" it's called that because you have to "float" the shifter out of gear, not accelerating or deccelerating just floating, no load on the transmission. But you will learn that with time, get good at the basics first.

[justanouthernewbie]

thanx pinner, just found out im back out in the morning heading to south carolina, so lots of more time to get some practice come west virginia and such. not sure about us-19, but i dont think theres a better route once i run down I-70/79 to get over to I-64/77. i think i was on 19 before and if i recall it was only one lane each way and it really sucked.

[ralph]

US 19 is the way to go. It's mostly 4 lane now...watch for the cops in Summersville. They love Canadians.

[Drifter]

WRONG info my a#@. To early for me to mention floating gears. Pinner get your S#$@ together not everyone runs in the mud or off road.

Any way you are the professional, I yield to your superior ( in your mind) skills

[Pinner]

Ok Newbie, first off relax take a deep breath.....Since you do double clutch try this

In what you call 8 lo-to down to 7hi depress clutch, as you move stick into neutral move button to hi release clutch in neutral. depress clutch put stick in 7 gear position and release clutch.



WRONG info my a#@.

From EatonFuller's Website...

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f153/COLT777/EatonFuller.jpg

[Drifter]

Statement made by fuller to cover their a@s If done right no damage incurred. But you just keep spouting all your book learned truck driver stuff, I have about as much respect for for that as joe college safety man

[Pinner]

But you just keep spouting all your book learned truck driver stuff

Thats funny, I taught myself how to drive, learned on real old school crap that needed some natural ability to drive.... Not these trucks these days that anyone can drive...

I supose you use the "cheater" gear too...

[Drifter]

I hear you or your ilk everyday on the C.B. usually invoving echo and roger beep. Happy trails big rigger.

[Pinner]

I've heard that drivers talk alot down east and in the states, it must be different out here...

We don't have C.B.s so the roger beep echo joke/insult doesn't work ??

[Drifter]

Wasted enough time with you good buddy.

Hey newbie how is the trip going? Should be getting a little smoother, yes??

[SEBOAM]

Read your quotes a little closer pinner. Why do you copy and paste from Eaton but say all the engine sweet spot info is bs?

[Pinner]

Engine sweet spots, do you mean temps?? Tell me :) Thanks in advance...

[justanouthernewbie]

well, got back yesterday and everything seem to be improving slowly. the only frustrating thing is that sometimes the truck pulls nicely and then on the next hill everthing goes for a crap lol. maybe not enough rpms to start maybe someting else. but ive accepted the fact that sometimes you just have to gear down lower and take longer. i went up the mountain that starts at the border of virginia and south carolina in 6 and never got over 30 miles an hour but made it up and actually passed someone else lol. it didnt help that i started the climb from scratch because i came onto I 77 from the loves at the bottom of the mountain from exit 1. was a long climb, i think about 6 miles. but everything seems to be comming along, slowly but comming.
leave for miami tommorrow, so more time to practice lol.

one other thing is that on some hills if i get the rpms to 1700 before the climb ,just above the marked line on the tach, sometimes, but only sometimes, the truck will almost pull itself up any mountain, i amost have to break a little , now only if it would do this all the time. sound strange or is this supposed to be.

[Drifter]

Sounds like things are coming along, Finding that comfort zone for shifting will come in time, not all eqip shifts good at identicle rpm sometimes 100 rpm will make a big difference. Don`t recall what engine you have but next time you get a chance ask a dealer for the hi and low shift points, sometimes a trainer isn`t positive so he will relay what he was told Keep up the practice and BE SAFE..

[Pinner]

the only frustrating thing is that sometimes the truck pulls nicely and then on the next hill everthing goes for a crap lol.

What goes wrong ? Bad shifting or what ...


one other thing is that on some hills if i get the rpms to 1700 before the climb ,just above the marked line on the tach, sometimes, but only sometimes, the truck will almost pull itself up any mountain

Maybe you should keep your eyes off the tach, drive/shift the truck by sound, and feel.

You can't always tell how much of a hill your on, it can be very decieving looking out the window and your weight is different every load... Some of the very experienced drivers will tell you about how they were surprised by a familiar hill, really surprised how hard of a pull it was when extra heavy. (like an extra 15 ton)

There is no such thing as "hi and low shift points" don't embarress yourself going to a dealership and asking someone... there is no right awnser, too many variables. You can't shift a 60 ton load uphill the same as a 20 ton load on flat ground...

This is why you have to feel the truck and give the truck what it needs when it needs it.

Watching the tach dosen't seem to be working, you got tons of power for the loads your hauling, I've never been down there but I suspect there is not much for hills on the I 77.

P.S. I'm still waiting for Seafoam to explain engine sweet spots...

[Coyote_NB_CA]

hi,

sorry but I'm still missing some infos:
witch engine he use?

i was a time on the road with a Cummings 375HP with a 10 speed
on 80.ooolb i go with this down to 12oo rpm then shift to 9

now i drive a 04 Pet with a C15 Cat and a 18 speed
on the same load i go down to 1100 RPM and shift a gear. in my first time
after a month i know the rpm points and the power from the CAT


if you shift half gears you lost to many time on power and this is the main problem for him.
he must know the "spot RPM" for the speed to slide the stick in the gear.
if he know the "spot" he don't need the clutch and win time on power.

[Drifter]

Recomended shift points by manufacturer tend to keep you in your peak torque zone, oops might be wrong( I`m not in pinners mud bucket) so I`m probably not. Oh, And just for you Pinner, there is no such thing as a stupid question!!

Keep at it newbie be safe, ask questions, it will develop into a skill where you will do things by reflex.




Hope I didn`t offend the pro ..

[hateshakingmachine]

ok, this might seem mundane or stupid at this point but here goes :(

ive been driving for only a couple of weeks and still having problems shifting on the hills. i drive a 13 speed and not too sure on the splitting. i shift normally from 1 through 8 then split 8 into 13. this works fine on flat terrain but once im into the hills of tennessee and kentucky im finding that im screwed :( i bog down then downshift from 8 to 7 but it seems i can never recover enough speed to get moving uphill more then 30 miles an hour. very frustrating! if anyone can tell me step by step how to get through the gears i would apprecitate it( and so would my truck )

last week i took 219 down through penn. and it was to say the least, a disater and very long night lol

the best way is only down shift half gear and so on (going up hill) , if you down shift a full gear ,u loose alot of eng power

[liner]

the best way is only down shift half gear and so on (going up hill) , if you down shift a full gear ,u loose alot of eng power

Huh!!!:dont_know:

[JReid]

I'm with liner on that one.Down shift 13 to 12 at the start of the climb then 12 to 10,10 to 8,8 to 6,6 to 5,5.4.3.2 to 5,,4,3,2, that's what work's for me and my tranny.

[JReid]

Oh, and in case some of you are confused when I said me and my "TRANNY" I mean "TRANSMISSION", NOT a pair of tight Levi's with a kick stand. Comprenday Amigo!!!!!

[Drifter]

Whew, glad you clarified that Mr Reid. lol

[Noname]

What goes wrong ? Bad shifting or what ...



Maybe you should keep your eyes off the tach, drive/shift the truck by sound, and feel.

You can't always tell how much of a hill your on, it can be very decieving looking out the window and your weight is different every load... Some of the very experienced drivers will tell you about how they were surprised by a familiar hill, really surprised how hard of a pull it was when extra heavy. (like an extra 15 ton)

There is no such thing as "hi and low shift points" don't embarress yourself going to a dealership and asking someone... there is no right awnser, too many variables. You can't shift a 60 ton load uphill the same as a 20 ton load on flat ground...

This is why you have to feel the truck and give the truck what it needs when it needs it.

Watching the tach dosen't seem to be working, you got tons of power for the loads your hauling, I've never been down there but I suspect there is not much for hills on the I 77.

P.S. I'm still waiting for Seafoam to explain engine sweet spots...

Power output is determined mainly by Turbo RPM and not engine rpm. I learned to climb hills by letting the tachometer hit the same rpm before down-shifting and watching where it lands on the tachometer when in the next lower gear. After I've trained my ears to the key of certain rpms until eventually I don't need to watch the tachometer much anymore. :Trucker:

[Noname]

ok, this might seem mundane or stupid at this point but here goes :(

ive been driving for only a couple of weeks and still having problems shifting on the hills. i drive a 13 speed and not too sure on the splitting. i shift normally from 1 through 8 then split 8 into 13. this works fine on flat terrain but once im into the hills of tennessee and kentucky im finding that im screwed :( i bog down then downshift from 8 to 7 but it seems i can never recover enough speed to get moving uphill more then 30 miles an hour. very frustrating! if anyone can tell me step by step how to get through the gears i would apprecitate it( and so would my truck )

last week i took 219 down through penn. and it was to say the least, a disater and very long night lol

The faster you can shift, the less road speed you will lose in between shifts, and the longer you can keep it in the sweet spot. The most common mistake is letting off the fuel pedal too much and the turbo starts to wind down. If you're fast enough and you're doubleclutching your fuel pedal should barely move a millimeter.

[Noname]

Thanks Liner and Mr. Bee! Sometimes I have trouble articulating. Pinner, you also are correct but in today's world you are supposed to lug down to the 1,000 rpm mark. I am with you and would sooner have higher rpm's than worry about having to make another shift nearing the top of the hill.

The lower you can lug down the easier the shift is going to be because you won't have to rev the rpms as high to get to the next lower gear.

[Noname]

Going from 7 high to 8 low--Move splitter to low position then shift stick double clutching into 8 and give her fuel-- Always move splitter just before you you move the stick-- If you're just slitting gears ( not moving the stick) double clutching is not necessary. Just come off the fuel and you will feel the shift and then back on the fuel. Do this for both up and down shifting when just splitting and not moving the gear shift

I was watching the roadranger videos and the proper technique demonstrated was to move the splitter once the stick has been moved into the next gear but right before releasing the clutch. Moving the splitter before or in neutral will damage the transmission.

[Noname]

Ok Newbie, first off relax take a deep breath.....Since you do double clutch try this

In what you call 8 lo-to down to 7hi depress clutch, as you move stick into neutral move button to hi release clutch in neutral. depress clutch put stick in 7 gear position and release clutch.

Doing the above on flat land as your down shifting, a few times and you will have it.


My advice tho is work on floating your gears (no clutch use ) Good Luck

Shifting the Splitter in neutral will damage the transmission and rapid wear on shifter fork according to the manufacturer.

[flh canuck]

I am presently taking my Class 1 driver training in BC and found this thread to be pretty interesting.

In BC, double clutching is required during the training course and is mandatory for the road test as well. I can see why as using the clutch unloads the power-train and as a newbie who is still a bit clumsy with the throttle and the shifter, there is less chance of damage if I mess up the shift.

A friend of mine has driven truck for 40 years and he effortlessly floats gears all day long. Its pretty impressive to watch somebody who is a master at his trade....

My up-shifting is going well but the down shifting still needs work. I always get it into gear but am finding it a real challenge to match the rpm perfectly every time as it varies greatly depending on the load, road speed and the steepness of the uphill or downhill grade. It is getting better but as per my instructor, I need to pay more attention to the tach and regulate my rpm better when bringing it up for a down shift...

I suspect I'm also going to deep with the clutch which is causing the engagement to be a little abrupt when I let the clutch out.... Hard to get out of the habit of using the clutch as I would in a passenger vehicle. It sure is satisfying when everything lines up as it should and the shifter slides into gear with no effort and no (ouch) grinding sound....

Just wondering if you seasoned drivers nail the rpm perfectly everytime when down-shifting or do you get it close, then just apply a bit of pressure on the shifter and slider er' in when the gears finally match up?

I suspect shifting is one of those areas that just needs practice, practice and more practice till you get to know the truck and powertrain.

Anyways, just wanted to say thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. Although there are some differing opinions, I think there is a lot of good advice here.

I am thoroughly enjoying learning how to drive and hopefully after reading this thread, my next lesson will go a little smoother in the shifting department.

[Pipeman]

The lower you can lug down the easier the shift is going to be because you won't have to rev the rpms as high to get to the next lower gear.If you have 200 RPM splits is doesn't matter how low you let it go, to get into the next low gear you still need to increase the RPM's by 200.

[Mercenary]

flh canuck: I don't nail it every time at all. I've only been driving for a couple of years and still to this day mess up on downshifts once and a while. Contrary to popular opinion a little bit of grinding isn't going to hurt anything.

I still pay attention to the tach when downshifting too. Lots of the older guys can shift very well simply by feel but I'm not there yet. I suspect it would get better if I was in the same truck day in and day out but I am constantly changing trucks and engine configurations..... Heck, even my driving instructor grinds gears every now and again and he had been driving for 40 years.

Oh, and I couldn't double clutch to save my life. I took my class 1 road test in BC too. Never had to double clutch once....not even to demonstrate that I could do it.....

[Mercenary]

Shifting the Splitter in neutral will damage the transmission and rapid wear on shifter fork according to the manufacturer.

Man, once you get out in the real world you'll find 'manufacturers recommendations' go out the window pretty fast.......

[coolcountrycowboy]

Man, once you get out in the real world you'll find 'manufacturers recommendations' go out the window pretty fast.......

I was thinking the exact same thing...Lol

You read my mind Mercenary...

[flh canuck]

flh canuck: I don't nail it every time at all. I've only been driving for a couple of years and still to this day mess up on downshifts once and a while. Contrary to popular opinion a little bit of grinding isn't going to hurt anything.

I still pay attention to the tach when downshifting too. Lots of the older guys can shift very well simply by feel but I'm not there yet. I suspect it would get better if I was in the same truck day in and day out but I am constantly changing trucks and engine configurations..... Heck, even my driving instructor grinds gears every now and again and he had been driving for 40 years.

Oh, and I couldn't double clutch to save my life. I took my class 1 road test in BC too. Never had to double clutch once....not even to demonstrate that I could do it.....


Thanks Mercenary.

I'm sure my down shifting will get better with time but based on what you have said, I won't beat myself up too bad as I have only had a few lessons so far. I'm sure there must be rocket mechanics out there that can master these skills after only a few hours but I am not one of them....

[Pinner]

Edit: I now see your response is to splitting in neutral.

I have to run, I wonder if pre selecting a split is OK with Eaton Fuller ? Post a link to the video.

[Pinner]

Just wondering if you seasoned drivers nail the rpm perfectly everytime when down-shifting or do you get it close, then just apply a bit of pressure on the shifter and slider er' in when the gears finally match up?


If the grinding is fast that means you need to adjust your revs, the slower the grinding the closer you are to sync, never try and force a gear but if the gear speeds are close, (slow grind, vibration in the stick).

I won't tell you to "apply a bit of pressure" because your idea of "a bit of pressure" when your new and desperate to get a gear, is probably much different than my idea of "a bit of pressure". ;)

Listen to the truck, it will tell you what it needs.

[coolcountrycowboy]

Edit: I now see your response is to splitting in neutral.



It's kind off ironic that in a thread called "sifting help", we have drivers suggesting to a new driver it is not important to follow the manufacturer's recommendations.

What possible advantage could be gained by making your range changes in neutral ? We know it damages the transmission, we also know that a new driver doesn't need anything else to think about between gears.

You can follow the recommendations from Eaton Fuller and seasoned drivers, who will tell you to pre select your range changes, or you can toss those recommendations "out the window".


I never split in neutral, unless I mess up, because I do beleive it's not good for the gear.

When I agreed about trowing recomendations out the windows, I was referring to double clutching wich is one of the recommendation from many (if not all) transmitions co. Now, how many of you double clutch???

I never had the chance to drive out west, but in the east, we do have nice hills to go up and down and I never use the splitter in those situations. Doesn't worth it...

[coolcountrycowboy]

If the grinding is fast that means you need to adjust your revs, the slower the grinding the closer you are to sync, never try and force a gear but if the gear speeds are close, (slow grind, vibration in the stick).

I won't tell you to "apply a bit of pressure" because your idea of "a bit of pressure" when your new and desperate to get a gear, is probably much different than my idea of "a bit of pressure". ;)

Listen to the truck, it will tell you what it needs.

Now, that's a really good advice.

[Noname]

I never split in neutral, unless I mess up, because I do beleive it's not good for the gear.

When I agreed about trowing recomendations out the windows, I was referring to double clutching wich is one of the recommendation from many (if not all) transmitions co. Now, how many of you double clutch???

I never had the chance to drive out west, but in the east, we do have nice hills to go up and down and I never use the splitter in those situations. Doesn't worth it...

To the best of my understanding the reason it's not good for the gears when you are using the splitter is because unlike the range selecter which has an interlock that keeps the two ranges of gears seperated until you move the stick, the splitter gears are connected without an interlock and have their own seperate clutch plate which has friction material and is capable of being overheated and worn down. As soon as you select the splitter the input and output shafts are spinning at different speeds until the range gears spin at the same speed as the splitter gears.

Does that sound about right?