Frtlr 5 ton flatbed frt spring sagging

[ed200152]

My part time job has me driving this flatbed straight truck - 2004 Freightliner m2, 180,000km, 14000 lb frt axle.
The drivers side is lower by about 1 1/2". The fuel tank is on that side. With low fuel and about 1 ton of lumber on the passenger side front of the bed the drivers side is still low. With the truck near maximum and evenly balanced the drivers side is still lower. The truck is leased from Ryder and I mentioned it to them to check the spring. They checked and lubricated the mounting points and checked for cracks. They felt there is no problem. With a full load the truck wallows and sways over the uneven road surfaces. How do I convince the mechanic that I think the drivers side spring is weak. It's noticeable and I'm worried the MTO will see it. I have about 7 years experience but never have driven a truck that's leaning. I don't know to what standard that's measured by.

[Mr Bee]

My part time job has me driving this flatbed straight truck - 2004 Freightliner m2, 180,000km, 14000 lb frt axle.
The drivers side is lower by about 1 1/2". The fuel tank is on that side. With low fuel and about 1 ton of lumber on the passenger side front of the bed the drivers side is still low. With the truck near maximum and evenly balanced the drivers side is still lower. The truck is leased from Ryder and I mentioned it to them to check the spring. They checked and lubricated the mounting points and checked for cracks. They felt there is no problem. With a full load the truck wallows and sways over the uneven road surfaces. How do I convince the mechanic that I think the drivers side spring is weak. It's noticeable and I'm worried the MTO will see it. I have about 7 years experience but never have driven a truck that's leaning. I don't know to what standard that's measured by.

Write it up on your post trip and have a mechanic sign off on it.

[Pipeman]

My part time job has me driving this flatbed straight truck - 2004 Freightliner m2, 180,000km, 14000 lb frt axle.
The drivers side is lower by about 1 1/2". The fuel tank is on that side. With low fuel and about 1 ton of lumber on the passenger side front of the bed the drivers side is still low. With the truck near maximum and evenly balanced the drivers side is still lower. The truck is leased from Ryder and I mentioned it to them to check the spring. They checked and lubricated the mounting points and checked for cracks. They felt there is no problem. With a full load the truck wallows and sways over the uneven road surfaces. How do I convince the mechanic that I think the drivers side spring is weak. It's noticeable and I'm worried the MTO will see it. I have about 7 years experience but never have driven a truck that's leaning. I don't know to what standard that's measured by.Sounds like a twisted frame to me.

[Bulldog]

side spring is weak. It's noticeable
Dead shock?

[ralph]

Dead shock?

Shocks don't support weight, they slow down the up and down compression of the spring or air bag.

[milgravis]

cab air bag?.....if there is one..

[ralph]

Ed, I am guessing that you are measuring from either the top or bottom of the frame at the same place on both sides. I know it's probably remedial bit it's all part of the complaint and the repair.

Is RYDER close enough to your yard that you can drop by when the truck is both loaded and MT? You're going to have to try and do this the same day dealing with the same service manager/service writer to get any where. Can you get your boss on your side with this? A call really needs to come from the "customer" and particularily from the person that chose and signed the lease with RYDER. That person needs to call and e-mail the salesperson/service manager @ RYDER and let them know that they need/want it addressed. If RYDER deems it to be safe then again it has to be documented and you need to carry a copy of that document with you.

[Bulldog]

Shocks don't support weight, they slow down the up and down compression of the spring or air bag.

Well Ralph , I`m not saying that is his problem for sure, i`m simply pointing out that a bad shock will cause that side of the truck to sag. If you don`t know how a shock works, let me try to explain. The shock is filled with hydraulic fluid that is forced through a series of holes inside the chamber as the suspension moves up or down. It is basically to slow down the up and down movement of the suspension.It does this via the basic rule of hydraulics, you can`t compress a liquid. If the hydraulic fluid has leaked, the shock will not support the spring and will compress causing one side to sag. I have trucks that have set back front axles and they only get 60k to 80 k on the front shocks before we replace.
Just my personal experience with shocks, not a personal attack on you Ralph.

[Pipeman]

Shocks are made to absorb the "shock" of rapid movement. When you install a new shock you can stretch or retract it by hand so pray tell how does it make the vehicle sag????

If it leaks it's shot. It's not made to carry weight, simply to absorb impact of "quick travel".

[Pipeman]

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Shock absorber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_absorber)

Nomenclature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_absorber#Nomenclature)|
Description (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_absorber#Description)|
Explanation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_absorber#Explanation)|
Applications (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_absorber#Applications)

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HowStuffWorks "Dampers: Shocks" (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-suspension2.htm)
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[Marmaduke]

Assuming we are not dealing with a bent frame which I doubt but possible, I still think your spring shackles are worn and seized (you would feel a shock in the steering wheel when you hit a bump), I would pay carefull attension on my circle check to the springs particularly the middle leaf between the u bolts and if you can check them on the inside as well for any cracks, I have had them with visable cracks on one side and not the other side of the spring (seen guys put a blob of grease over it to hide it from MTO), even if there is no crack doesn,t mean they arn't weak. Its very possible a shock has failed long ago weakening the spring over time, also maybe at one time someone has changed only one spring or even a leaf. The fact that its not stable on the road is a safety concern to have it fixed immediatly. Tell them its wandering all over the place.
When your driving down the road do you hear metal rattling, thats a broken shock inside. Near drove me nuts figuring that one out and it was newer. Thats all I know for now.
After they greased it did it handle any different even for a short time?

[Bulldog]

and gas shocks are tied closed for what reason pipeman???
Oil shocks don`t push like gas but they do the same job. i did not say they replace a spring , i said they assist a spring. I can change the front shocks on a truck and the Moose bumper will be almost touching the ground when I tilt it before and it will have several inches of cleareance after the shocks have been installed . Explain that pipeman! please post some sites that disprove that.
Why bother to reply to posts . Ralph and pipeman nay say anyone elses opinion, you two are not the only truckers here. I posted about why I change shocks and one of the reasons is when the front end is leaning , not good enough for you , tough !

[ralph]

Ralph and pipeman nay say anyone elses opinion, you two are not the only truckers here. I posted about why I change shocks and one of the reasons is when the front end is leaning , not good enough for you , tough !

WOW, did Santa piss in your Cornflakes over the holidays and you still have a pissy taste in your mouth?

A couple of posts ago you professed that your reply was not a personal attack towards me...did something change?

[Bulldog]

WOW, did Santa piss in your Cornflakes over the holidays and you still have a pissy taste in your mouth?

A couple of posts ago you professed that your reply was not a personal attack towards me...did something change?
Yes you are right, i let pipeman`s post cloud my judgement and I should have kept you out of it. Sorry for that Ralph.

[ed200152]

-no leak at shocks or unusual rattles
-I'll have a real close look and wipe the spring leaves next time
-safety last Oct, shackles lubed, idler replaced
-tire pressures good (I checked)
-rear air bags all good, tire pressures at spec

-the wallowing is a slow up and down over road 'up and downs' accompanied with a sideways rocking only when loaded near max.
-also the more weight = more steering wheel to the right because of the steering box arm angle change as spring compresses
.....this might be too technical for some, but: as the frame lowers the steering arm gets more horizontal which moves the spindles and causes them to turn towards left meaning the steering wheel needs to turn right to compensate - a stronger spring would allow less downward movement causing less change in steering assembly angle.

I tried explaining this to the Ryder tech and he had this look on his face like...WTF is he talking about.
What should the difference in left/right ride height?( this one is 1 1/2")
So... by looking at the front of the truck should you be able to see a difference in ride height? I can see the axle beam is not parallel to the rest of the cab but the cab and truck bed all line up. I had them check the air bag on the cab and check for free movement.

I have a reputation at Ryder as being too picky. Examples below.
1) an out of round front tire causing low speed shimmy and high speed vibration - never found a problem
2) intermittent check engine light - oh, they all do that
3) intermittent cutting out accelerating under load - oh, they all do that
4) binding shift lever not allowing disengagement of gears when stopped(only when hot) - no problem found
5) interaxle diff lock not working(one tandem wheel spinning while backing over curbs - the other don't get drive)
6) occasional oil fumes(smells like blow by) in cab at hwy speeds - no problem found

[lostNfound]

Springs carry the weight, shocks control the ride. If changing shocks results in a significant change in ride height, there are additional suspension problems to be dealt with. A standard hydraulic shock (with no external spring), as used almost exclusively in trucks, properly sized and specified should have no effect on ride height. However, when newly installed, shocks may appear to increase the ride height, but this is simply due to the suspension being fully extended and then needing to "re-seat". After a short drive the ride height should be the same as before.

[Marmaduke]

Not sure so I'm asking, should there be a considerable arch in the spring even fully loaded?

[JimmTwo]

Here is a thought; I was involved and done the measurements. period When the ProStar at Navistar was first interduced, with cab skirts and all the swank. These pigs laid to the left real bad...engineering claimed the springs were matched sets........NOT. We tried switching spring from odd ball sets, it worked only temporary untill a load was put on it. Remeasured the frame for pircecing found the left lowerer by 1/2 in when measured at fuel tank 1-1/2 inch ....long story short the frame punches were recaliibrated........does Navistar says this happened NO customer abuse:nenernener:

[ed200152]

Not sure so I'm asking, should there be a considerable arch in the spring even fully loaded?

I got no answer when I asked the tech. All he said was that the frame/spring snubber have enough clearance.

On this truck the leaves are near flat when heavy load is on. The other truck was a year older, same model, same specs but had a 5 leaf spring pack as opposed to mine , a 2004, which has triple leaves but different dimension. The other also had about 5" more frame height.

[ed200152]

I checked both right and left springs. The springs consist of 3 leaves. On the good side the middle leaf has a very slight upward curving as it overhangs the axle beam. On the 'weak' side the middle leaf has a very slight downward curve and then straightens and gradually curves upward. I can't tell if there is a crack behind the U bolts or over the axle perch. There are no traces of rust bleeding.566

[ed200152]

567I backed the truck to a different spot in case of uneven floor.

Looking from the back of the truck along the bed I can see a twist in the bed that's lower on drivers side front.

[lostNfound]

Maybe you just need to go on a diet.



;-)
Posted via Mobile Device

[RodeoJoe]

How do you feel that a forum can diagnose a mechanical problem on a vehicle that you say various mechanics have approved? If it still bothers you to drive it, red flag it, put it out of service, and get on with your life.

[Marmaduke]

It seems like the garage is taking the wait till it breaks attitude. Odd

[ed200152]

It seems like the garage is taking the wait till it breaks attitude. Odd

Yah, the benefits of a full maintenance lease...

[ralph]

Ed, I made this suggestion a long time ago>> how did you make out.


Ed, I am guessing that you are measuring from either the top or bottom of the frame at the same place on both sides. I know it's probably remedial bit it's all part of the complaint and the repair.

Is RYDER close enough to your yard that you can drop by when the truck is both loaded and MT? You're going to have to try and do this the same day dealing with the same service manager/service writer to get any where. Can you get your boss on your side with this? A call really needs to come from the "customer" and particularily from the person that chose and signed the lease with RYDER. That person needs to call and e-mail the salesperson/service manager @ RYDER and let them know that they need/want it addressed. If RYDER deems it to be safe then again it has to be documented and you need to carry a copy of that document with you.

[ed200152]

Ed, I made this suggestion a long time ago>> how did you make out.

That will be my next step. Just to make it clear...I'm their back up driver...(I'd rather work part time then to get nagged by my wife full time)and only get called in when they're busy. Now that the lumber and drywall business is slowing down slightly I'll push for a service appointment

[ed200152]

The Ryder shop fixed the sagging driver's side spring problem, the front of the truck now sits level...........how did they do it????
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2 steel plate shims on top of the axle beam raising the leaf spring pack by 1 1/2".
The driver's side leaf pack is still de-arched when compared to the good, passenger side. At least the truck sits level. Have to check it when I have a good load on.

[Marmaduke]

The Ryder shop fixed the sagging driver's side spring problem, the front of the truck now sits level...........how did they do it????
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
--
2 steel plate shims on top of the axle beam raising the leaf spring pack by 1 1/2".
The driver's side leaf pack is still de-arched when compared to the good, passenger side. At least the truck sits level. Have to check it when I have a good load on.

I think thats a unusual fix. To do right you would have to replace both springs which might be too expensive for now.

[ed200152]

I think thats a unusual fix. To do right you would have to replace both springs which might be too expensive for now.

That's the way I would have done it...but then again, I'm a backyard mechanic and I would have used rolled up cardboard. The lease on this 2005 truck was extended to November. I'll get some pics next time.